I feel like my HSR account has officially graduated

[tanithryudo]

Finally able to complete the endgame: Forgotten Hall level 12 and Pure Fiction 4. Haven't done Apocalyptic Shadow 4 yet since the time limit for that will roll over to the next monthly battlepass track, and I am considering saving it for then, but I don't forsee any issues with passing that either, since the current AP bosses are fairly easy/straightforward according to all sources.

With Forgotten Hall, I initially tried Himeko + Topaz on team 1. But it seems like the superbreak pair of Ruan Mei and Harmony MC is better used together with the break-weak boss on this level. And that leaves only 1 DPS slot, in which case, Himeko is weaker than Jing Yuan (didn't consider Topaz as she's more sub-DPS and also non-AoE). Also, their follow up attacks trigger about the same amount of times in the fight, and thus trigger about the same amount of dungeon bonus.

With team 2, Clara + Bronya make for a great duo on my account, since I have Clara built for all damage and no speed, whereas Bronya has decent speed (currently 152 and still trying for 160) and can pull Clara along. Topaz is there as SP-positive subDPS to focus on the main boss, and help trigger the dungeon bonus. Luocha as it turns out can sustain the team just fine (as long as no one gets one-shot) and half the load for debuff clearing is picked up by Bronya anyways, who's keeping Clara in the clear.



For Pure Fiction, I actually got really close to the pass threshold with the same team, but slightly less built Hanya. Turns out I just needed to raise her to to level 80, fill in her last trait with +8% ATK, and swap her lightcone for Bronya's. Not too much which of these made the main difference... the added traits, or the change in LC, since the better LC also allowed her to generate more SP, which could be critical for a team with a SP-hungry DPS such as DHIL.

Anyway, having Hanya working so well makes me less inclined to pull for the Sparkle rerun banner coming up next with Jiaoqiu. Even if she's touted as DHIL's best support due to providing SP and speed. I mean, she's essentially a Hanya-plus. But if Hanya works ok for endgame content, and I don't have a non-gameplay preference for Sparkle's character, I don't feel there's a need to pull.



Speaking of pulls, the current rumors for the 2.5 patch (the one with the story update after Jiaoqiu's banner coming up next) is that the first half will be Feixiao plus a trio 5* rerun of Robin + Kafka + Black Swan. Then second half will be Lingsha + Dr Ratio.

My current plans are to get Feixiao + her LC (because most Hunt LC I have suck). Then Dr. Ratio's LC for the pretty. Also considering on getting Robin and maybe her E1 (but not LC because there's lots of great free Harmony LCs), because she's the best/most hyped support right now. Will see how my luck goes with pulls, and whether we get news of when Aventurine rerun occurs.

Addendum: Newest rumors say that Lingsha's banner will rerun with Topaz instead of Dr. Ratio. Not sure how reliable this is, since Topaz just had a first rerun recently, and it seems weird she'd be the first character to rerun twice ahead of so many others. On the other hand, she's touted as best support DPS for Feixiao, so they might be trying to boost sales by bringing her up again. On the third hand, testers have also claimed that the Hunt-March and the new 4 star Moze on the Feixiao banner are also great supports for her, so it's not like Topaz is a must have on her team. On the fourth hand, if Ratio is kept back, then he'll likely show up along with Aventurine's rerun, which is a cute arrangement if so. Anyways... I guess we'll wait and see. All is fine as long as they're not rerunning Aventurine immediately, cuz that would really be a crunch on my jades.

Comments

[cashew]

Does Aventurine heal or is he purely a buffing unit? (Why am I asking? I'm not even playing this game.)

[tanithryudo]

Aventurine is Preservation, so he's a protector/tank. The only other 5 stars in that role are Fu Xuan (limited) and Gepard (standard banner). Aventurine is a direct pro-max replacement of Gepard in that role, specializing in shielding the team. No heals, the idea behind prots are they keep the team from getting hit/damaged and needing heals.

He also does a bit of group and ally buffing, a bit of enemy debuff, and has an follow-up attack. This makes him the best fit in the follow-up meta group (along with Ratio and Topaz, unsurprisingly), and also great at sustaining in other groups.

His E1 auto-recasts his shields on ult, and E2 adds another debuff for enemies. I'm leaning towards getting these two as well with jades permitting.

[cashew]

I'm trying to wrap my head around Aventurine "shielding" the team and does not compute.

It does sound like the game is trying to make their "canon" relationships work together mechanically. Makes me wonder if the Yaoqing trio (飞霄、椒丘、貘泽) would combine well...

[tanithryudo]

> I'm trying to wrap my head around Aventurine "shielding" the team and does not compute.

Eh? How so? Aventurine is one of the few characters whose gameplay class actually matches his in lore faction. A faction he actually chose even when he was given other options (he outright rejected an offer from the Elation faction).

Plus, part of his cornerstone's powers is shown to shield and protect. That's why he was willing to risk taking a shot from Acheron knowing she's an Emanator of Nihility. He had at least some odds that his cracked cornerstone would be able to give him enough protection to prevent true death (and it even prevented the rest of that dreamscape from being smashed to bitty pieces).

> Makes me wonder if the Yaoqing trio (飞霄、椒丘、貘泽) would combine well...

Feixiao is a follow-up meta character, as is Moze. So she fits well with Moze, the IPC supports (Topaz, Aventurine), and the new Hunt-March.

Jiaoqiu is an AoE debuffer, and the only major DPS that works off of debuff are Acheron and Ratio. Currently, he seems to be definitely made to go into Acheron's team since she's the one who can take advantage of AoE whereas Ratio is more single target based.

[cashew]

Eh? How so? Aventurine is one of the few characters whose gameplay class actually matches his in lore faction.

It's more that Aventurine's character is a gambler rogue archetype. These are types that are more associated with "playing the odds", so I figured he'd have some more randomized mechanics (or at least mechanics that play around with probability) and focus on things like buffing in his support arsenal. A "shield" mechanic I would immediately think of the likes of Gepard, with a personality of "I will protect you!" type. If anything, Aventurine's personality seems to be the opposite of the "shielding" type of character.

part of his cornerstone's powers is shown to shield and protect.

I mean, it'd have to be given Aventurine's penchant for taking risks... I just didn't realize the cornerstone spread its protection to anyone else.

Jiaoqiu is an AoE debuffer, and the only major DPS that works off of debuff are Acheron and Ratio.

Wait...not all DPS benefits from debuffs? Why? (I'm wondering if all AoE DPS can benefit from Jiaoqiu regardless but sounds like the answer is no?)

[tanithryudo]

> gambler rogue archetype

That's more mechanical classes though. Paths aren't necessarily, or rather, purely based on mechanics (or methodology). See my previous post about Paths.

Granted, it's possible if the game mechanics had an Elation class, they might've sorted Aventurine there. However, despite his MO, his core self and core philosophy has always been the drive to protect - originally his family and clan, and later their legacy. Elation is chaos for the sake of chaos, all life being a story / stage play / etc. And that perspective on life was what Aventurine rejected.

That plus he's gotta have high defense to have survived all the BS he went through in Penacony, plus the way he let all the verbal insults against him slide right off his back, does make him a good fit for a Preservation character.

> Wait...not all DPS benefits from debuffs? Why? (I'm wondering if all AoE DPS can benefit from Jiaoqiu regardless but sounds like the answer is no?)

Eh, all characters benefit from debuffs as they affect the enemy, sure. Your healers and buffers get just as much out of it as the DPS. But only Acheron and Ratio have specific damage modifiers that scales their damage based on the number of debuffs on the enemy.

[cashew]

Paths aren't necessarily, or rather, purely based on mechanics

I mean, that's fine? I'm talking about the mechanics feeling a bit at odds with the character design.

his core self and core philosophy has always been the drive to protect - originally his family and clan, and later their legacy

Hm...I guess I will have to go look into the story stuff a little more once I finish catching up on patch 2.4 plot.

But only Acheron and Ratio have specific damage modifiers that scales their damage based on the number of debuffs on the enemy.

Interesting, so debuffs don't apply things like "takes extra damage" or "lowers armor/defense". (For example, vulnerability debuff in GW2 effectively boots DPS output; or armor break causes enemies to take 50% more damage in many JRPGs.) Are debuffs solely limited to things like decreasing speed/damage or blinding/paralyzing/freezing the opponents?

[tanithryudo]

The debuffs themselves do have effects like "lowers defense" or "decreases enemy speed", as well as dot effects like "burning", "bleeding", etc. But all of those benefits your whole team, not just the DPS. There are plenty of supports/sustains that can deal damage on the side.

So having a debuffer is nice and all on teams with normal DPS, but nobody is irreplacable, since other characters might have buffs or whatever which can assist the team as a whole just as well as those debuffs.

But if you have Ratio or Acheron as your main DPS, you are locked to having some kind of support debuffer on the team, or else you're losing a lot of your DPS damage, then in which case, why bring those DPS at all?

I would think this is normal for team building games? A lot of support units being geared towards particular DPS. Like, SP-boosting supports like Hanya and Sparkle are obviously meant to support SP-hungry DPS like DHIL. Break mechanic supports like Ruan Mei and HarmonyMC are tied to Firefly teams. Black Swan is considered a Kafka support unit rather than a primary DPS on her own.

[cashew]

A lot of support units being geared towards particular DPS.

Hm, I wouldn't say that's very common, as the accusations of pay to win start popping up if teambuilding become too rigid. Like usually all DPS of a type can benefit from the same type of support (ex. Dark-damage support unit in PAD can fit on any Dark-lead team). So I assumed an AoE debuffer would support all AoE DPS and not only a few debuff-based DPS.

From what I'm understanding of the teambuilding in HSR is the team starts with a support/healing unit and then find a DPS unit as appropriate. Is that not the reason support units have longer meta lifespan than DPS units, since DPS get power crept much faster while support units can fit on more teams?

[tanithryudo]

Support units generally have flexibility to support more than one type of DPS, but some also have a clear best fit DPS. We also get less support 5 stars than DPS in general, so there's the difference in quantity too.

[cashew]

From what you were describing it sounded like only Acheron and Ratio can truly benefit from Jiaoqiu (with Acheron being the better fit), while other DPS don't seem to get much out of him. I'm questioning the design of having an AoE debuffer that doesn't benefit all AoE DPS units, especially since support units are rarer than DPS units. One would think under this ratio, the design decision ought to be giving wider compatibility to support units so they can benefit multiple DPS units rather than being tailored to a specific DPS.

In other words, it's weird that Jiaoqiu doesn't fit with other DPS units as well, especially other AoE DPS units.

[tanithryudo]

??????

If Jiaoqiu becomes the ideal support for all DPS, then he would completely obsolete all support characters before him. And all subsequent supports that are released after him would need to powercreep significantly to compete.

The playerbase would *explode*. And not in a good way.

Of course the better design (and business) decision is to have different best-in-slot supports for different popular DPS.

[cashew]

If Jiaoqiu becomes the ideal support for all DPS

Where did I say he should become the ideal support?

I'm saying other DPS units should still benefit from him and team building should still be possible. It shouldn't be a case where if you don't have Acheron then Jiaoqiu is useless and holds zero appeal. Which is what it sounds like you're saying.

If the idea is to entice the player base to pull on every new release, then every unit should have at least a couple of different combination of teams they can do pretty well on, even if it's not bleeding edge optimal. In the case of support/DPS combos, good options shouldn't be only one or two.

But from your description it sounds like anyone who don't have acheron would have no incentive to pull on Jiaoqiu. That seems like a poor design.

[tanithryudo]

Other DPS do benefit from him...? I mean, it's not like he's completely useless if put into a team without Acheron or Ratio. He's still a 5 star debuffer.

If you're a new account and don't have a lot of other support 5 stars, sure, pulling him is fine for general use. If you like his character design (as some people do after seeing his PVs or the bit in March's storyline where he defeated Skott with laxatives), then you're free to pull for him.

But that doesn't mean, for example, Firefly's best-in-slot supports aren't still gonna be Ruan Mei + HarmonyMC + Gallagher (or Lingsha) from an objective standpoint and you're not going to pull for him to support if your team is centered on Firefly. Similarly, the ideal follow-up team supports have been pretty much nailed down to be Topaz+Robin+Aventurine, and there's nothing Jiaoqiu can improve there for pure numbers.

> it sounds like anyone who don't have acheron would have no incentive to pull on Jiaoqiu

I don't see the problem with him being designed to go best for Acheron over other DPS? She's one of the more popular characters with a very high rate of possession by players.

> every unit should have at least a couple of different combination of teams they can do pretty well on

My first response is that's an insane ask from just the conceptual perspective, especially as and the number of previous 5 stars to take into account increases. As well, many DPS differ from each other based on their damage mechanic. It would be horrible design for a support to cater to every (or even most) mechanics. It would produce much more powercreep than the current system.

[cashew]

My first response is that's an insane ask from just the conceptual perspective

But it's really not an insane ask. There are 4 units per team, presuming each unit has 3-4 possible teammates per role (aka 3-4 support for each DPS, 3-4 DPS per support, etc.), that's 256 combos (at 4 units per role) assuming unique roles. If we drop that to 3 units per role, that's only 81 combos. I can literally crunch those numbers in an excel spreadsheet. I'm sure the actual design team has much faster computing power.

And all of that isn't taking into consideration that a support unit's biggest concern is to be compatible with DPS, as you mentioned the support and healers aren't going to get as much out of a debuffing unit. In that case, the actual number of combinations to consider is even smaller.

Ultimately all the roles come down to either DPS, sustain, or support. If we break it down to greater granularity, it's AoE DPS-Single Target DPS, heal-shield, buff-debuff. That's a total of six roles. AoE DPS is AoE DPS. A buff unit designed to support AoE DPS shouldn't have to take into account every single unique mechanic across all AoE DPS units. So yeah, there's going to be a slight spread (hence why I said not every combo has to be bleeding edge), but it shouldn't be hard to conceptualize mechanics that fit with different units that all fulfill the same role. Meanwhile, making sure AoE DPS get more out of an AoE support than a Single Target DPS will be enough to achieve asynchronous game balance.

Other DPS do benefit from him...?

OK, from what you were saying it sounded like people who main other DPS units are better off not pulling him, which makes it sound like he's designed specifically for Acheron and Ratio.

Similarly, the ideal follow-up team supports have been pretty much nailed down to be Topaz+Robin+Aventurine, and there's nothing Jiaoqiu can improve there for pure numbers

See, I'm a bit confused. This makes it sound like there's actually an ideal combo that fits multiple DPS units. That means the design team did manage to take into consideration how to design supports that can benefit a collective category of DPS units (so long as they follow a similar strategy). I'm not sure why you're arguing this isn't possible or is an insane ask.

[tanithryudo]

> If we drop that to 3 units per role, that's only 81 combos. I can literally crunch those numbers in an excel spreadsheet.

Ugh.. characters of a specific role are not just swappable templates with numbers changed. They involve designing and testing new mechanics which don't just spring into existence as simple as copy-pasta and adding a +1.

And it's not just you need to design N combos that work with each other. You also need to design around the fact that all *other* P-N possible combinations *don't* work with each other in unintended/broken ways. You also need to ensure that there's no (unintended) duplication of mechanics or stat boosts.

> a support unit's biggest concern is to be compatible with DPS

The biggest concern with support units from a *design* perspective is not about how much they boost any particular DPS. It's that they (1) don't make any previous supports completely obsolete in the eyes of players, and (2) don't interact with other supports/DPS in broken ways. This complexity obviously increases the more combos of characters there are in total.

I roughly follow some of the news on the CN leaks forum and the pre-release characters often go through several phases of testing/buffs/nerfs, and half the time, changes are geared toward adding or removing specific synergies with specific characters.

> it's AoE DPS-Single Target DPS, heal-shield, buff-debuff. That's a total of six roles.

It's not just as simple as that. The reason why there's different mechanics (sets) is to serve specific encounters.

Jing Yuan and Argenti are both 5 star Erudition, but you can't just shuffle them both under AoE DPS. Jing Yuan will benefit from follow-up bonuses whereas Argenti can't. Argenti will benefit way more from ult buffs where most of JY's damage comes from his Lightning Lord.

Ruan Mei and Robin are both popular buffers but they also don't fall into the same "role". RM is a staple for break-focused teams, while Robin is best to support a team that can go multiple times per round (eg. follow-up teams, but not JY's type of followup, which is too slow).

> OK, from what you were saying it sounded like people who main other DPS units are better off not pulling him, which makes it sound like he's designed specifically for Acheron and Ratio.

He's specifically designed for Acheron. Ratio is just an incidental side benefit.

Objectively speaking, people who *don't* play Acheron will get more value for their money if they pull on a different support which better suits their DPS. But if they do pull for Jiaoqiu w/o Acheron, it's not like he's useless. If you throw him into a team with random DPS and sustain, they'll still function, just not as well as if he's with Acheron.

> This makes it sound like there's actually an ideal combo that fits multiple DPS units.

The previous standard follow-up team was Ratio+Topaz+Robin+Aventurine. Feixiao is explicitly supposed to be an improvement/replacement over Ratio (lacking his debuff requirement), which is tolerated by players because Ratio was given out for free to most people and thus it doesn't feel like any purchase was invalidated. The other potential supports for Feixiao are 4 stars (Hunt-March and upcoming Moze); they're considered a cheaper side-grade/slight downgrade to Topaz for people who don't have her or don't have the money to pull her.

[cashew]

(I'm going backwards because the last bit is really kind of bothering me.)

Feixiao is explicitly supposed to be an improvement/replacement over Ratio (lacking his debuff requirement), which is tolerated by players because Ratio was given out for free to most people and thus it doesn't feel like any purchase was invalidated

OK, if the purpose is to "not invalidate old unit", then changing the meta to constantly chase new mechanics basically defeats that purpose. You've even mentioned, just because old units can output the same numbers doesn't mean that they can keep up with the new meta due to dungeon mechanics specifically negating their strengths. In which case, how is that any different than putting out units that simply is a straight upgrade.

(To be clear, I don't like power creep, so I'm not advocating to release units that replace old units. I'm trying to understand how using dungeon mechanics to make older units useless is fundamentally different.)

The reason why there's different mechanics (sets) is to serve specific encounters.

Yeah, and from what you're telling me, those encounter mechanics (at least in end-game dungeons) specifically avoid playing into the old unit's strengths, thus making them irrelevant. Meanwhile, story mechanics are simple enough that any 5-star, regardless of balance, can pull the team through. Seems like miHoyo is still designing obsolescence in older units, just doing it in a more round about way than straight up adding plus ones.

they (1) don't make any previous supports completely obsolete in the eyes of players, and (2) don't interact with other supports/DPS in broken ways...

If dungeons are literally avoiding the mechanics that previous support units excel at, then it doesn't matter if the current unit is or isn't stepping on the previous unit's toes, since the mechanic doesn't even get to bring benefits. It seems then the balancing is happening more on the dungeon side of things than the individual unit side of things.

As for broken interactions, if they're already testing all previous supports against a new support to make sure there's no toe-stepping (although why bother when dungeons are moving onto new metas anyway so old supports don't work as well already), then making sure there's a couple extra combos that are also viable is a drop in the bucket in terms of game balance playtesting calculations. Further more, there's already unintended interactions (per Ratio example you mentioned), in which case, they might as well just lean into it at that point. Especially if the new supports revives some older units, that'll do way more to minimize the "making previous unit obsolete in the eyes of gamers" bit of the concern.

characters of a specific role are not just swappable templates with numbers changed. They involve designing and testing new mechanics

OK, what I'm getting is that new characters get new mechanics because new dungeons are meant to circumvent older kits thus making new characters relevant. However, as I've repeatedly mentioned in my reply, this is just building obsolescence into older units without "adding plus ones" as it were. In which case, one doesn't need to test extensively against older units because older units literally do not have the skills needed to overcome the new dungeon mechanic. Or at least are already handicapped by not being equipped to deal with the new mechanics.

[tanithryudo]

> In which case, how is that any different than putting out units that simply is a straight upgrade.

Because the meta (latest endgame mechanic) will be constantly changing. So the current meta DPS will not always be in that role. Thus, their "reign" as top DPS is only temporary, and their "lifespan" is judged by how they would do absent of those mechanic bonuses compared to other non-current-meta DPS.

The endgame mechanic is there to make the current meta DPS easier to use, faster to 0-cycle (for brags). It's not there to ensure that old DPS are unable to complete the dungeon or anything. Hence for people who don't care about 0T, or aren't newbies with lack of characters to choose, having a built old DPS with the appropriate element is sufficient for just passing them.

[cashew]

Of course the better design (and business) decision is to have different best-in-slot supports for different popular DPS.

I'd argue that's a great way to get people to stop spending as soon as they got their BiS support. Why get the new unit that doesn't benefit their favorite? The only way to induce more spending is power creep and force a new favorite onto the fanbase. And ppl who prefer less popular DPS units will simply leave or stop spending since they're getting nothing worthwhile from the new pulls.

Given there are much fewer support units compared to DPS, it would make much more sense for support to benefit more DPS units so ppl with different DPS builds will all want to pull on the new unit. I never said the new unit should somehow obsolete the old units, as BiS for support would, presumably like other unit types, be dependant on the needs of the dungeon. Just like shield & heal units appeal to different types of strategies, support should also presumably appeal to different strategies. Hinging a support unit on the availability of a limited time DPS unit is pretty much a sure fire way to guarantee lack of popularity, even if that DPS is popular. Gamers aren't stupid, they know their DPS is going to get power crept at a later date. There's no reason to invest in a support unit that has low compatibility with future DPS release.

Since you said non-acheron DPS get the same out of Jiaoqiu as a healer, then what would be the appeal of pulling him? Even if Acheron mains pulled him, they'll have to abandon Acheron when power creep comes in, and consequently have wasted resources on Jiaoqiu who won't be worth taking on a non-acheron team.

[tanithryudo]

The way Star Rail design process works is that you have characters/teams centered around a particular mechanic. There's usually 1-2 DPS, 1-2 supports, 1-2 sustains forming the core of the mechanic. And the characters are spread out and sold over time until you build up that best in slot team (that is, assuming you're a hardcore gamer pursuing the meta).

Then the weekly/monthly "dungeons" are balanced around the current banner character and/or the current mechanic.

So yeah, pure numbers wise, old DPS like DHIL and Jingliu can do as much damage as current DPS on paper. But the current endgame doesn't cater to their strengths and mechanics, so they don't perform as easily as the current "meta" teams. Hence people who pursue the current best "meta" are always going to be pulling for the latest "core" DPS/support/sustains. When the next mechanic rolls around (probably with 3.0 patch), people who pursue the meta will shell out for those characters.

> Since you said non-acheron DPS get the same out of Jiaoqiu as a healer, then what would be the appeal of pulling him?

For the people who don't care about the meta, they're usually pulling by the looks or the lore or the character design, so they don't really pertain to this discussion at all.

[cashew]

Hence people who pursue the current best "meta" are always going to be pulling for the latest "core" DPS/support/sustains.

...So what would be the logic of releasing a support that can't out perform previous supports in the latest meta? I mean, you're saying:

1. the only motivation for these hard core players is to chase the current meta

2. Jiaoqiu is the most recent support released but doesn't fit into the core meta build

So...how would Jiaoqiu be sold to these guys? These hard cores are going to be the main whales in a gacha game. They're the ones you can count on to spend constantly and consistently, swapping out their entire team for the newest meta combo. As you said, those who are pulling for looks and don't give a toss about meta aren't even going to bother to look at new units when they've already pulled their ideal pretties. And if they do pull, it's not reliable and they're unlikely to become whales.

Not to mention I find it highly unlikely Jiaoqiu is a XP only type of unit, given how little the story has helped to sell his character (unlike Jing Yuan who seem to be sold purely on characterization and has a huge chunk of story focus dedicated to him).

[tanithryudo]

Acheron is a meta DPS (along with Firefly having the highest rate of player pulls for recent DPS), so in that respect, people who want the best support for Acheron pulling for Jiaoqiu is pursuing the meta...

And then there's the people who buy E6 for all characters anyway (mostly to show off how rich they are I guess?), but it doesn't matter if the character is meta in that case.

[cashew]

Acheron is a meta DPS (along with Firefly having the highest rate of player pulls for recent DPS)

I mean it really sounds like, from what you're describing, newer units are making older units obsolete. Hence my comment about I really don't think they should be designing such that there's obvious advantage like this. I'm getting from the other comment thread that you're saying this is the result of dungeon design, but it's effectively achieving the same effect: only have one meta DPS at a time. That's bad game design because...again, why bother investing when in another 4-5 months, new DPS is gonna take over as the new meta.

I mean, there's no chance of any older units ever returning back to the meta cycle based on what you're describing, so anyone who ever invests in any character is purely doing it for pretty and not gameplay unless they try to whale. That's pretty much the fastest way to generate churn. And most service games want to minimize churn.

[tanithryudo]

> newer units are making older units obsolete

Depends on where you set the goalpost for obsolete. Old DPS are still functional and they'll do the job, just not as easily or as fast. The current meta DPS will feel much easier and faster to play in the current meta suited for them, but if you just look at objective numbers, they don't generally get you more rewards or anything.

> only have one meta DPS at a time

And there's generally 2-3 mechanics/teams that are "currently meta" at any time, because the endgame all require 2 simultaneous teams, and because a full team takes time to build up (sell) and it's not like they're generally all released back to back. The staggered release means as the new "meta" is in the process of building up to their full potential, the previous meta teams would still remain relevant in pure numbers, if not in mechanics.

Currently, meta is the Acheron team and the Firefly team, with Yunli team a bit behind them. Before them, the meta teams were headed by Seele, DHIL, Jingliu, Kafka (DoT). Currently, DHIL and Kafka teams are still valid and played by people who either didn't spend/pull/play the 2.x DPS, just from raw damage (Jiaoqiu can also potentially stand-in as a slight downgrade of Black Swan in Kafka teams for those who didn't pull her since he does do some DoT). Seele can often do well in some scenarios too, because all her mechanic requires is that there are side fodder-mobs to feed on; she's just more fiddly to play, but day-1 players who have her should presumably be used to it.

Jingliu is the only one who's kinda faded out from usage except for the rarer occasions when a boss will have ice vulnerability. Though her case is different as it's less she's been powercreeped as more like the devs just don't like the ice element or something... Presumably once we ever get an ice DPS in the future, and dungeons start having a lot more ice weak enemies, Jingliu will become relevant again for people who don't want to pull the new DPS.

The next change in mechanics is rumored to be coming in the 3.0 update. But that won't start until next year. So the 2.x meta teams still have plenty of time to shine before they get "replaced". Similarly, the 1.x meta teams had plenty of time to shine too, because while Acheron came in the 2.0 patch, Firefly didn't come around until 2.2 or 2.3 IIRC, which was near mid-year.

> there's no chance of any older units ever returning back to the meta cycle

There's some exceptions, such as when there's overlap between mechanics. For example, Yunli is an explicit upgrade of Clara (standard banner character, so you can't pay to specifically pull her, and thus ok to replace with a limited 5 star). This means that situations suited for Yunli will also be 70-80% suited for Clara (more if you just pull Yunli's lightcone and give it to Clara).

But in general, yeah, older units aren't expected to become meta. But that doesn't mean they're not usable or anything. Having older DPS with the right element works fine for completing the endgame.

Case in point, I don't have any of the currently meta DPS: Acheron, Firefly, or Yunli, or even a lot of the meta-supports like Sparkle, Robin, Huohuo, Aventurine (my healer Luocha is considered "obsolete" by meta-chasers). But this initial post is me completing the endgame anyways. And the 5 stars I used were "never-been-meta" Jing Yuan, "replaced-by-Yunli" Clara, "replaced-by-Sparkle" standard banner Bronya, standard banner Himeko. The only "meta" characters I have are HarmonyMC (free), Ruan Mei, and Topaz.

> so anyone who ever invests in any character is purely doing it for pretty and not gameplay

That's the best way to play this game, IMO. I don't know how much of a percentage that hardcore players who always chase the meta make up in this game. But from my experience in the EN reddit community, at least most of the people there don't seem to be chasing raw numbers.

At most, they'll consider if they need a DPS of a particular element, but rarely more than that. Or, on reruns, if a particular characters has had overwhelmingly positive reviews by people who pulled them the first round, people might be inclined to get them the second round.