Counting Coup at Helm's Deep
Jun. 9th, 2004 10:17 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
tanithryudoSo there was this Rumbles thread, whose topic veered off into a comparison of Legolas' and Gimli's performances at Helm's Deep. Particularly, it seemed to me that, given the epic level abilities of our two heroes, and the sheer numbers pressed on Rohan, the body-counts in the low 40's seemed somewhat low.
So, me being the LOTR-obssessed fangirl that I am, I went and reread the relevant chapters and rewatched the relevant scenes. Yes, I know. I disturb even myself.
What happened in the book, from TTT, Book I, Chapter 7:
(Actual quoted text is in red. Narrative summary is in green. If there is space between paragraphs, it means that there was other text in between in the lines.)
"We loosed every arrow that we had, and filled the Dike with orcs. But it will not halt them long. Already they are scaling the bank at many points, thick as marching ants. But we have taught them not to carry torches."
It was now past midnight...
So we start our counting of time in the battle from midnight, when the uruks first reach the dike at Helm's Deep.
The Uruks rush the walls several times and are pushed back by arrows; they gain ground each time. A group of uruks go up the ramp surrounded by shields and begins working the door with the battering ram. Eomer & Aragorn lead a charge to scare them off. When they retreat, Eomer is tripped. Gimli jumps to his rescue.
An axe swung and swept back. Two orcs fell headless.
If this is indicative of his ability in melee, even if we don't expect the luck of positioning to allow two kills per blow, Gimli still ought to be averaging at a pretty high kill-rate. If we assume one blow per kill, or even two, and that he's not slow to swing his axe, that still ought to be at least a kill per minute or so.
Then again, he did attack from a position of surprise in this part.
“Two!” said Gimli, patting his axe. He had returned to his place on the wall.
“Two?” said Legolas. “I have done better, though now I must grope for spent arrows; all mine are gone. Yet I make my tale twenty at the least. But that is only a few leaves in a forest.”
As an aside, I would hypothesize that Legolas had 20 arrows in his quiver. Being an archer, he certainly ought to know how many arrows he started out with, and I really doubt that any shot of his would be less than lethal. So the "twenty at the least" indicates that he knows for sure how many he got by arrow, but (perhaps) hadn't bothered to count outside of that, whether he killed them with knife work or (more likely) "spent arrows". Of course, after they start the counting coup, I guess he'll be paying more attention in keeping track. ^_-
Orcs start going up the walls using grapple/ropes & ladders. Aragorn & Eomer lead 3 rallies of the men (who are getting weary) to push them back. A bunch of orcs sneak in through the culvert behind the Deeping Wall and attack once they have a decent sized force together.
Down from the wall leapt Gimli with a fierce cry that echoed in the cliffs. “Khazad! Khazad!” He soon had work enough.
“Twenty-one!” cried Gimli. He hewed a two-handed stroke and laid the last orc before his feet.
Gimli, Gamling, and others use stones to block up the culvert. They go back up to the wall.
There was for a while a lull in he assault, since the attempt to break in through the culvert had been foiled.
“Twenty-one!” said Gimli.
“Good!” said Legolas. “But my count is now two dozen. It has been knife-work up here.”
“Dawn is not far off”
Gamling says the last part not too long after they go up the wall, so the invasion via the culvert was sometime near dawn. I would guess maybe 4-5 a.m. or so in the morning?
Also, I think this part intimates that Gimli got most of his kills so far from the brief invasion. Seems like nobody was doing much killing during the 3 rallies... or maybe those were just the men... or maybe that was more of 'knock over the ladders' and 'cut the rope' than straight-out killing of enemies. If this is true, nearly 20 kills in that short span of time would still indicate a pretty impressive fighting ability, even if it meant that he wasn't doing much in terms of body-count before then. (Assuming the time period was an hour, that would be something like 1 kill per 3 minutes.)
Legolas, in contrast, only gained a few counts. At most 4, if we assume that he resumed count at 20. Perhaps not as many orcs made it to the walls, or up the walls while others were pushing back the invaders at the culvert.
Uruks use gunpowder to blow out the culvert. More ladders come up to the walls.
Over the wall and under the wall the last assault came sweeping like a dark wave upon a hill of sand. The defense was swept away.
Everyone retreats into the Hornburg. Legolas shoots his last (retrieved) arrow. Gimli and Eomer are both left down below in the din.
Legolas: “But I wish that he had come this way. I desired to tell Master Gimli that my tale is now thirty-nine.”
39 - 24 = 15, done in the short amount of time for the walls to be breached, overwhelmed, and for the good guys to retreat. This is probably the primary indication of Legolas' melee/knife fighting skills in the whole book. No real indication of how many by arrow and how many by knife though, but I doubt he could've picked up that many arrows between the dialogue following the first culvert-invasion and the rush of events just now. (Again, assuming a time period of 1 hour, this would be like 1 kill per 4 minutes.)
Aragorn wonders where everyone is, then talks with Theoden. Aragorn & Legolas go around helping the defenders w/ the grappling hooks and ladders.
As he looked forth he saw the eastern sky grow pale. Then he raised his empty hand, palm outward in token of parley.
So this would be maybe 6-7 a.m.?
Aragorn blah blah's with the orcs. The gate gets blasted open. Theoden & Aragorn with company ride out, cleaving a path to the dike. By light of day we see Fangorn forest come to Dusina--er--Rohan. Gandalf arrives with Erkenbrand. Orcs run into the forest in panic and get mulched.
There came Gamling the Old, and Eomer son of Eomund, and beside them walked Gimli the dwarf. He had no helm, and about his head was a linen band stained with blood; but his voice was loud and strong.
“Forty-two, Master Legolas!” he cried. “Alas!” My axe is notched: the forty-second had an iron collar on his neck. How is it with you?”
“You have passed my score by one,” answered Legolas.
41 - 39 = 2 during the "ride out and cleave a path" part. I guess either Legolas isn't all that good at horseback-knife-fighting or he didn't count the ones he stampeded over or knocked away. Only fatalities he was sure of, perhaps?
42 - 21 = 21, which Gimli got between the retreat from the walls and taking cover in Aglarond with Eomer. Compared to Legolas' 15 from above, it's numerically more impressive. However, this may also be due to more time spent out here the orcs were pressing the hardest (and most numerous), and for a longer time, arguably, depending on how far away the caves were in comparison to the Hornburg. (If we use the 1 hour estimate once more, this is again about 1 kill per 3 minutes.)
Also, let's note that both Gimli and his main weapon are both worse for the wear coming out, though it's nothing severe. Legolas, we might presume, remained pristine. ^_~
Overall Analysis:
I think the book is a bit more realistic with the numbers, at least. The bulk of both our heroes' counts come from brief but heavy spurts of fighting, which would account for the fact that why beings of their skill wouldn't have counts in the one-hundreds if they had been fighting midnight-to-dawn straight. (If we assume at least 6 hours, and an average of 1 kill every 3 minutes, that would still be at least 20x6=120 kills, almost three times their actual amounts. Or at 1 kill/4 minutes, 15x6=90 kills, more thn twice their actual amounts.)
What happened in the movie, extended edition, disc 2:
(Narrative summary is in blue. Dialogue summary in red. This is starting from scene 49.)
Segment 1 (~5 minutes of screen time):
Night time (call it midnight). It starts to rain. The Uruks come and do their challenge thing, then rush the fort. The elves and men start raining arrows. Ladders are raised and fighting breaks out on the walls.
Gimli: "Two!" Legolas:"I'm on 17!"
More shots of fighting. Gimli chops two more (+2).
Legolas: "Nineteen!"
End segment (scene switches to Treebeard).
Considering the whole scene took like 5 minutes, that's some fast shooting. In fact, when we pan over the elves as they're shooting from the walls, it's apparant that they're doing the standard 'semi-automatic bow' thing, shooting one arrow immediately after another like they don't even need to stop and aim. All lethally, o'course.
And just for Legolas, 19 kills in 5 minutes is like... almost 4 kills per minute, or one per 15 seconds. Of course, that's not even top speed, since it looks like he didn't spend every moment of it shooting. Gotta move around to avoid struggling fighters and return arrows, perhaps?
Segment 2 (~10 minutes of screen time):
Gimli: "17... 18... 19... 20... 21... 22..." (fades out)
He does this in less than a minute. o_O In explicit dialogue, no less. So at *least*, 6 kills per minute, or a kill per 10 seconds. Ouch.
Uruks sneak a ram behind closed shields up to the gate and starts ramming. Theoden unthinkingly invokes Murphy's Law. Uruks use gunpowder to blow up the culvert. (We see Legolas and Gimli each take out at least one uruk. +1 to each.)
Legolas then does his skateboard scene, which involves 4 arrow shots, one uruk impaled on the skate-shield, and 1 death by knife (hand-held arrow?). (L +6)
Note: That's 6 kills in less than a minute right there too. Pure number/time-crunching-wise, Legolas isn't behind Gimli. The kill speed in this one and the previous counting dialgue is about the same, more or less.
End segment (we switch to Treebeard again).
Segment 3 (~10 minutes onscreen) Takes place right after the previous segment.
We see Gimli take out one orc in the background (G +1). And Legolas, I think, two (L +2) when he whips out the knives.
Theodens calls for Aragorn & his troops to fall back. Legolas and another elf drags Gimli away from the fight. Haldir gets killed. Aragorn, in a moment of insanity, jumps down on a ladder, then works back in through the gate. Theoden wants some time to brace the door. Aragorn and Gimli jumpes/gets tossed onto the causeway and hold off the Uruks there.
I counted about 7 kills for Gimli in this segment, not counting the uruks that just got knocked off the bridge without a weapon hitting them, or the ones that Aragorn whacked. (G +7)
Legolas shoots down a ladder that's dropping onto the Hornburg. I counted at least 20 uruks on the ladder.
I don't think that many Uruks got squished though, since a falling ladder is dodgeable unless you're on it. Also, I guess Legolas didn't count this part on his final body-count, else he'd already have significantly more than 42 total by now.
Legolas throws a rope down and pulls Aragorn & Gimli up. Theoden calls to fall back again. In the wide shot, we see Aragorn rushing after Theoden, and the elf immediately following him - presumably Legolas - makes 4 more shots with bow/arrow down into the occupied lower levels. (L +4) No uruks around for Gimli to whack though.
End segment. Blah blah about Treebeard, Osgiliath.
Segment 4: (~ 5 minutes onscreen)
Theoden and Aragorn does the ride out and meet them thing. Gimli is blowing the horn on the roof, so no fight scenes. Legolas is riding along, and I counted maybe 7 swings total that he makes at the uruks; let's be generous and assume they were all kills. (L + 7)
Overall Analysis:
The final count in the movie for the duo is Gimli - 43 and Legolas - 42. (One more for each than the book, for some strange reason.)
On screen: 19+1+6+2+4+7=39 for Legolas and 22+1+1+7=31 for Gimli... which isn't higher than their stated totals (a good thing, else it'd be somewhat embarrassing). However, the whole time sequence that we saw onscreen was probably less than 30 minutes (it took me about 45 minutes from when I turned on the DVD to when I turned it off, including flipping through scenes/chapters, pausing to count stuff, and rewinding segments to rewatch). Given that the fight lasts from night well into morning, I really doubt that either of our duo spent *a lot* of time doing nothing. Unlike the book, the pacing and events of the movie simply doesn't allow for it.
In conclusion:
While the ~40 count is okay for the book version, it really doesn't fit *at all* in the context of the movie. The movie versions should have accumulated much higher body-counts.
As for Legolas vs. Gimli... Well, in terms of kill rate, the book version of Gimli *might* *arguably* have a slightly faster kill rate than Legolas. However, Legolas came out in better condition from the battle. In the movie, both of them are killing machines with murderous kill-rates. Yes, that includes Legolas in knife/sword-only melee. No definite answers either way.
Me? I'm inclined to think half-half either way in melee. 5/10 each.
(Disclaimer: The conclusions and analysis that I make from the scenes are highly speculative given the ambiguity present in both film and book. They should not be taken as canon. Canonicity belongs only to the explicit quotations.)
Addendum:
I was inspired in this entry by a debate on the Rumbles board. After linking my above analysis to the argument, I then had to proceed to defend my conclusions and clarify my points from other posters. Since the discussion is now long over, I'm going to repost those parts of the debate to do with this entry here for completeness's sake.
Jared:
There is good point raised though. Not everyone Legolas hits with arrow is neccessarily a kill. With his super vision, he may well be able to tell exactly how many he's shot dead on the spot, and how many were merely wounded and removed from the action.
Me:
quote: There is good point raised though. Not everyone Legolas hits with arrow is neccessarily a kill.
This point was also answered in my reply in that journal entry.
We've only see *one* indication of Legolas' arrows not being *immediately* lethal, and that was a case of plot mandate. If you're going to just assume that large portions of targets he shoots with his arrows didn't die, then we'd also have to assume that a large portion of uruks that Gimli hits in the movie also survived, since it typically takes him more than one blow to kill an uruk.
Quite frankly, though, the on screen performance of both is against either of those assumptions.
quote: With his super vision, he may well be able to tell exactly how many he's shot dead on the spot, and how many were merely wounded and removed from the action.
Unfortunately, I really doubt Legolas could afford to take a couple of minutes off from battle to just stand there and stare at the guy he just shot just to make sure the dude finally dies. Not to mention everyone moving around making that kind of LOS-tracking difficult.
Jared:
quote: Quite frankly, though, the on screen performance of both is against either of those assumptions.
It's the only way to make sense of his stated kill count though. Either that, or every time during the battle when he's *not* on camera, he's cowering behind a wall not fighting anyone.
quote: Unfortunately, I really doubt Legolas could afford to take a couple of minutes off from battle to just stand there and stare at the guy he just shot just to make sure the dude finally dies. Not to mention everyone moving around making that kind of LOS-tracking difficult.
I don't think he's doing that. But he's got the equivelant of an autozoom for his eysight. He can see right away if he's hit the heart, or through the throat/head or some other definatly fatal spot. If not, given what we've seen of Uruk durability, he can probably assume the target doesn't die, at least not *directly* from his shot.
Me:
quote: It's the only way to make sense of his stated kill count though. Either that, or every time during the battle when he's *not* on camera, he's cowering behind a wall not fighting anyone.
And I suppose Gimli was cowering right alongside him whenever not on screen too?
Jared:
Perhaps they had a game of blackjack going. :p
Gordon:
quote: There is good point raised though. Not everyone Legolas hits with arrow is neccessarily a kill.
Perhaps not, but Legolas can reasonably assume that the vast majority of his targets are either dead, or will be dead, within moments of being hit. Legolas shoots to kill, with every shot aimed at a critical location on the target, and he *never* misses. Even a victim who doesn't go down from shock and trauma *immediately*, can, on the basis of past experience, be expected to bleed out and die very shortly anyhow-after all, none of Legolas' opponents have access to Elvish medical skills (or a sophistcated emergency care system) that might save them from a normally fatal wound. Even that suicide bomber orc Legolas failed to kill immediately would have gone down eventually-it's just that he had just enough stamina to last long enough to carry out his mission. This is not necessarily indicative of a failure of Legolas' archery skills, but rather, reflects the reality of how tough some beings can be to kill instantly.
quote: With his super vision, he may well be able to tell exactly how many he's shot dead on the spot, and how many were merely wounded and removed from the action.
He's more likely to do a recount of the victms during the after-battle cleanup.
Jared:
quote: Perhaps not, but Legolas can reasonably assume that the vast majority of his targets are either dead, or will be dead, within moments of being hit. Legolas shoots to kill, with every shot aimed at a critical location on the target, and he *never* misses.
That's not neccessarily true. ISTR one of his shots against the cave troll bounced off because he hit too hard a surface as the troll was thrashing around while he was aiming. But moreover, in Helm's Deep, he fails to take out the suicide bomber with multiple hits around the shoulder area. If he truly had perfect aim, he wouldn't have. He is *superhumanly* good, not doubt about that, but he's not Bullseye with a bow. If he were, he'd have killed that guy with one shot, perhaps through an eye.
quote: Even a victim who doesn't go down from shock and trauma *immediately*, can, on the basis of past experience, be expected to bleed out and die very shortly anyhow-
Remember we're not talking about humans here.
quote: He's more likely to do a recount of the victms during the after-battle cleanup.
I suppose that's possible. I don't recall, are his arrows visibly different from those used by the other elves?
Me:
quote: That's not neccessarily true. ISTR one of his shots against the cave troll bounced off because he hit too hard a surface as the troll was thrashing around while he was aiming.
A cave troll is not an Uruk. The comparison is pointless. Legolas couldn't have known before hand that a regular arrow into the troll's hide would not deal much damage to it, hence why he was experimenting with different tactics (such as jumping on top and shooting its head, and then later shooting down its throat) in the course of that fight.
quote: But moreover, in Helm's Deep, he fails to take out the suicide bomber with multiple hits around the shoulder area. If he truly had perfect aim, he wouldn't have. He is *superhumanly* good, not doubt about that, but he's not Bullseye with a bow. If he were, he'd have killed that guy with one shot, perhaps through an eye.
As I said before. Of all the shots we see him make in the Helm's Deep fight (and in Parth Galen too, if we add that scene) where we also see what happens to the target of his arrows, the suicide bomber Uruk was the ONLY one who didn't immediately fall. This is clearly a case of plot mandate.
As for shooting an immediate kill-spot: recall the positions of the two of them. The Uruk was practically at the foot of the walls, whereas Legolas was on top of said wall and to the side. The angle of their positions would not have made a shot to the eyes possible, unless Legolas can somehow cause his arrows to do 90 degree turns in midair, or the Uruk was looking up. From the angle he was at, the shots he made were the optimal ones possible given his position. This is not a slight on Legolas' abilities, unless you want him to be telekinetic.
Of course, with the suicide bomber orc, that was a target which was chosen for Legolas. Aragorn told him to shoot the thing. Normally, I think we can assume that Legolas has the common sense to shoot outwards at Uruks further away at the wall, where he would have a better angle of approach; or he'd be shooting at the Uruks which had already gained the walls.
quote: Remember we're not talking about humans here.
Remember that he has gone up against Uruks before in Parth Galen. He's not totally ignorant of Uruk Hai physical abilities.
Besides, the majority of the Uruks at Helm's Deep were *not* anywhere near Lurtz's ability and stats (otherwise a horde who can individually give Aragorn a run for his money is going to slaughter the ragtag Rohirrim defenders easily). We see throughout the Helm's Deep scenes of Uruks falling from shots or blows that you'd expect would work on humans.
Not to mention which, *Legolas* was the one in the movie who notes to the other elves where the Uruk weak points are in their armor. It stands to reason that there wouldn't be any point to fire at non-lethal areas in the first place, since the only lethal area he could shoot at without hitting armor was in the neck. And, of course, the vast majority of the Uruks at HD were armored. The suicide bomber Uruk was the sole exception, which made the non-immediately-lethal shots even possible. This also means that outside of the sucide bomber Uruk, Legolas ought to be reasonably sure of which of his shots killed his targets (ie. all of them).
quote: I suppose that's possible. I don't recall, are his arrows visibly different from those used by the other elves?
The first quiver had Mirkwood fletchings. After that, whereever he got the refill arrows from, they were probably Galadhrim. Assuming, of course, he did refill, and didn't just have some sort of freaky magic quiver.
Jared:
quote: A cave troll is not an Uruk. The comparison is pointless.
With regards to whether his aim is truly perfect, it is not. *Perfect* means without flaw. In which case, every shot he ever fires should be through the eyeball into the brain. Not much can survive that.
quote: Legolas couldn't have known before hand that a regular arrow into the troll's hide would not deal much damage to it,
You really think that an Elven warrior prince doesn't know anything about cave trolls?
quote: As I said before. Of all the shots we see him make in the Helm's Deep fight (and in Parth Galen too, if we add that scene) where we also see what happens to the target of his arrows, the suicide bomber Uruk was the ONLY one who didn't immediately fall. This is clearly a case of plot mandate.
Which doesn't mean that all shots he takes *off camera* are the same way. Besides, if some of his hits aren't fatal, then we're left with no explanation for why his body count is so low.
quote: As for shooting an immediate kill-spot: recall the positions of the two of them.
I don't have the scene in front of me, but it seemd to be that he was firing from in front of, and above the orc. Considering where his other shots hit, he could have gone for the face, the groin, or the feet. Hell, why didn't he just shoot the hand carrying the torch?
quote: Besides, the majority of the Uruks at Helm's Deep were *not* anywhere near Lurtz's ability and stats (otherwise a horde who can individually give Aragorn a run for his money is going to slaughter the ragtag Rohirrim defenders easily). We see throughout the Helm's Deep scenes of Uruks falling from shots or blows that you'd expect would work on humans.
True, but in those cases, we're talking about major traumas that would be instant, or near instantly fatal for humans. But a wound that might kill human after hours, or days, without medical attention, I think an orc would be more likely to survive. Considering the way they live, they're probalby extremely resistant to infection. And given their fight-happy nature, they probably sustain lots of injuries throughout their lives. Hell, remember the orc from RoTK who looked like Sloth, but with one eye?
quote: The first quiver had Mirkwood fletchings. After that, whereever he got the refill arrows from, they were probably Galadhrim. Assuming, of course, he did refill, and didn't just have some sort of freaky magic quiver.
The magic quiver is most unlikely, given that there's nothing like that in the books, and the movie doesn't suggest it?
So either Legolas took very, very, few shots while the camera wasn't looking, or some of his shots weren't kills. Or he lied, which is doubtful given his character and every indication is that he really did want to outscore Gimli.
Me:
quote: With regards to whether his aim is truly perfect, it is not. *Perfect* means without flaw. In which case, every shot he ever fires should be through the eyeball into the brain. Not much can survive that.
quote: You really think that an Elven warrior prince doesn't know anything about cave trolls?
For one thing, the first shots he made at the cave troll was right into the area where its heart should've been (slightly to the side from the center of the chest). When that didn't work, he made the next shots from the top of its head. The last attack was made down its throat.
Aside from the double-arrow into its side that was obviously done for the sole purpose of distracting it from an impending attack on a fellow Fellowship member, the three attacks that Legolas made on the troll quite obviously indicates a progression of experiments on where the thing was vulnerable.
So also quite obviously, his arrows were going quite flawlessly wherever he wanted them to go. The fact that where he wanted them to go weren't the right places is utterly irrelevant. The point is that the cave troll scene does not give any indications that Legolas *tried* and somehow missed hitting a spot he was aiming for. Therefore, there is no evidence from that scene to suggest that he was habitually inaccurate enough to miss a large percentage of targets at in Helm's Deep.
As for the tangent regarding cave trolls - recall that there are different breeds of trolls in ME, with different attributes. The only caves located in Mirkwood were the halls where the elves lived. So no, I doubt Legolas had a lot of training versus cave trolls, beyond possibly the theoretical. His actions in the cave troll fight support this theory, since he obviously starts off not knowing the weak spot on that thing and has to find it through trial and error.
quote: Which doesn't mean that all shots he takes *off camera* are the same way.
So now we can assume whatever the heck we want of characters despite their on screen showings just because we want to? How convenient.
I think I'll stick to judging Legolas' (and Gimli's, for that matter) off screen skill levels by their on screen showings.
quote: Besides, if some of his hits aren't fatal,
All of two to three shots on the same Uruk, and then only because said Uruk lasted an extra couple of seconds. Compared to the dozens that he wastes with a single arrow each (or sometimes, a single arrow for multiple kills).
quote: then we're left with no explanation for why his body count is so low.
The explanation is simple. The script writers were too busy trying to match up the body counts to the book-canon (even though they were off by one for both) and didn't take into account of the changes made to the battle at Helm's Deep in the movie version. A plot hole, much like the never-empty quiver.
Not to mention, even if you cast Legolas into the worst (and entirely unfounded) possible light and have him miss more than 3/4ths of his shots, it still wouldn't explain *Gimli's* low kill-count either. Unless now Gimli's axe hits are non-lethal for the most part also?
quote: I don't have the scene in front of me, but it seemd to be that he was firing from in front of, and above the orc. Considering where his other shots hit, he could have gone for the face, the groin, or the feet. Hell, why didn't he just shoot the hand carrying the torch?
From top, yes. From front? No. When Legolas made his shots, the Uruk was a mere 15 seconds or so away from the culvert. Hitting the groin or the feet would've been impossible unless the arrows go through the body to do so (and if they could've bisected the Uruk, there wouldn't've been any need to). Hitting the hand would've been unwise because obviously the torch would be in the way, both in terms of targetting and in terms of contact.
As well, had it been any other uruk (such as the ones we do see falling on screen), an arrow to the chest where Legolas had planted them in that scene would've have certainly dropped it. So yes, there was quite a bit of Plot Mandate and possibly PIS at play in that scene.
quote: True, but in those cases, we're talking about major traumas that would be instant, or near instantly fatal for humans. But a wound that might kill human after hours, or days, without medical attention, I think an orc would be more likely to survive. Considering the way they live, they're probalby extremely resistant to infection. And given their fight-happy nature, they probably sustain lots of injuries throughout their lives.
You're not listening. I'm not *speculating* that the Uruks should go down and stay down when they take a "normal" hit like the ones at Helm's Deep. I'm *telling* you they did, based on what I saw on the screen. Aside from the olympic flame orc (see above), every freaking time Legolas shoots an Uruk on screen, we see the Uruk fall. And we explicitly hear Legolas add two to this kill-count after downing two Uruks precisely in that way. Obviously, *he* thought his shots were lethal enough.
quote: The magic quiver is most unlikely, given that there's nothing like that in the books, and the movie doesn't suggest it?
*sigh* I was being facetious. The only time I've heard mentions of a magic quiver was in parodies and in one particular fanfic. Not that it wouldn't be an interesting way to explain away that particular plot hole...
quote: So either Legolas took very, very, few shots while the camera wasn't looking, or some of his shots weren't kills. Or he lied, which is doubtful given his character and every indication is that he really did want to outscore Gimli.
Both of them had less counts than their on screen abilities indicate. I would love to explain it away like maybe they were using a hexidecimal number system or something, but it's probably best to leave it the plot hole that it is and rely on onscreen showings to support fight debates than to blindly rely on two lines of dialogue.
Jared:
quote: Both of them had less counts than their on screen abilities indicate. I would love to explain it away like maybe they were using a hexidecimal number system or something, but it's probably best to leave it the plot hole that it is and rely on onscreen showings to support fight debates than to blindly rely on two lines of dialogue.
That's not an in-universe explanation though. Peter Jackson directed those battle scenes, yet also saw fit to go with kill counts similar to those from the book. And he's a filmaker who likes attention to detail. I would think that in some way, it should make sense. The only explanations I currently see that could work, in-universe are...
A)Legolas doesn't believe that every shot he makes should be considered a fatality.
B)Legolas is lying when he says 42 (41?) to avoid making Gimli feel bad.
C) For some odd reason, Legolas is doing very little fighting during moments that aren't visible to the viewer. This could probaby apply to Gimli as well.
Also, Legolas probably didn't count the guys on the ladder. (that could also possibly go under B)
And I don't dispute him having super duper aim. But were his aim truly *flawless*, he could have hit that cave troll right in the eyeballs at almost any time during the fight. He might not be an expert on troll breeds and their various physilogies, but the eyes are a weakpoint on just about everything.
Me:
quote: That's not an in-universe explanation though. Peter Jackson directed those battle scenes, yet also saw fit to go with kill counts similar to those from the book. And he's a filmaker who likes attention to detail. I would think that in some way, it should make sense.
You're giving Peter Jackson too much credit in this particular instance. It's pretty clear they were trying to keep the numbers similar to book canon (like most extended edition scenes), despite the on screen performances of the characters. It pays as much attention to detail as the ever-full quiver.
quote: A)Legolas doesn't believe that every shot he makes should be considered a fatality.
Which is untrue, since he counts 17 kills in the first two minutes or so of the attack, when the Uruks were the furthest from his position (charging across to the walls). Later shots tended to be made at point blank range, and he could've scarcely done *worse* in those cases.
quote: B)Legolas is lying when he says 42 (41?) to avoid making Gimli feel bad.
Also untrue, since in the movie, Legolas gives his count *first*. He had no idea what Gimli's count was to try and make him feel better. Not to mention which the attitude he presented when he reports his score was definitely one that wasn't giving an inch.
quote: C) For some odd reason, Legolas is doing very little fighting during moments that aren't visible to the viewer. This could probaby apply to Gimli as well.
Possible, but highly unlikely, since they were both in the thick of battle the entire time and I doubt the Uruks would just leave them alone.
quote: Also, Legolas probably didn't count the guys on the ladder. (that could also possibly go under B)
I didn't count the guys on the ladder either. Otherwise Legolas would have more than 42 kills *on screen*, rather than only more than 42 kills via extrapolation.
quote: And I don't dispute him having super duper aim. But were his aim truly *flawless*, he could have hit that cave troll right in the eyeballs at almost any time during the fight.
If you look closely at the facial renditions of the cave troll in the appendices of the film, you'll see that the structure of its eyes/eyebrows/eye ridges makes it hard if not impossible for a decent sized arrowhead to get in there. And even if the arrow somehow got in there, it would more likely only blind the troll instead of killing it.
Look, the concept of a "flawless aim" is that the arrow hits exactly where you want it to hit, no more, no less. It's definition does *not* include hitting somewhere else where you didn't mean for it to hit, no matter if that would've done more damage. The fact that Legolas did not *try* for an eye shot does not mean his aim was flawed; it just means he didn't think to try for an eye-shot. In other words, the cave troll scene has nothing to do with Legolas' aim.
quote: He might not be an expert on troll breeds and their various physilogies, but the eyes are a weakpoint on just about everything.
That doesn't mean his first instinct is to shoot everything through the eyes. Obviously, he's trained to shoot at heads, necks, chests, etc as we see in his scenes against most foes. He didn't know that the cave troll wouldn't be harmed by his arrow; therefore it's not some major failing of his (especially in regards to AIM) that his first shot was into its chest.
So, me being the LOTR-obssessed fangirl that I am, I went and reread the relevant chapters and rewatched the relevant scenes. Yes, I know. I disturb even myself.
What happened in the book, from TTT, Book I, Chapter 7:
(Actual quoted text is in red. Narrative summary is in green. If there is space between paragraphs, it means that there was other text in between in the lines.)
"We loosed every arrow that we had, and filled the Dike with orcs. But it will not halt them long. Already they are scaling the bank at many points, thick as marching ants. But we have taught them not to carry torches."
It was now past midnight...
So we start our counting of time in the battle from midnight, when the uruks first reach the dike at Helm's Deep.
The Uruks rush the walls several times and are pushed back by arrows; they gain ground each time. A group of uruks go up the ramp surrounded by shields and begins working the door with the battering ram. Eomer & Aragorn lead a charge to scare them off. When they retreat, Eomer is tripped. Gimli jumps to his rescue.
An axe swung and swept back. Two orcs fell headless.
If this is indicative of his ability in melee, even if we don't expect the luck of positioning to allow two kills per blow, Gimli still ought to be averaging at a pretty high kill-rate. If we assume one blow per kill, or even two, and that he's not slow to swing his axe, that still ought to be at least a kill per minute or so.
Then again, he did attack from a position of surprise in this part.
“Two!” said Gimli, patting his axe. He had returned to his place on the wall.
“Two?” said Legolas. “I have done better, though now I must grope for spent arrows; all mine are gone. Yet I make my tale twenty at the least. But that is only a few leaves in a forest.”
As an aside, I would hypothesize that Legolas had 20 arrows in his quiver. Being an archer, he certainly ought to know how many arrows he started out with, and I really doubt that any shot of his would be less than lethal. So the "twenty at the least" indicates that he knows for sure how many he got by arrow, but (perhaps) hadn't bothered to count outside of that, whether he killed them with knife work or (more likely) "spent arrows". Of course, after they start the counting coup, I guess he'll be paying more attention in keeping track. ^_-
Orcs start going up the walls using grapple/ropes & ladders. Aragorn & Eomer lead 3 rallies of the men (who are getting weary) to push them back. A bunch of orcs sneak in through the culvert behind the Deeping Wall and attack once they have a decent sized force together.
Down from the wall leapt Gimli with a fierce cry that echoed in the cliffs. “Khazad! Khazad!” He soon had work enough.
“Twenty-one!” cried Gimli. He hewed a two-handed stroke and laid the last orc before his feet.
Gimli, Gamling, and others use stones to block up the culvert. They go back up to the wall.
There was for a while a lull in he assault, since the attempt to break in through the culvert had been foiled.
“Twenty-one!” said Gimli.
“Good!” said Legolas. “But my count is now two dozen. It has been knife-work up here.”
“Dawn is not far off”
Gamling says the last part not too long after they go up the wall, so the invasion via the culvert was sometime near dawn. I would guess maybe 4-5 a.m. or so in the morning?
Also, I think this part intimates that Gimli got most of his kills so far from the brief invasion. Seems like nobody was doing much killing during the 3 rallies... or maybe those were just the men... or maybe that was more of 'knock over the ladders' and 'cut the rope' than straight-out killing of enemies. If this is true, nearly 20 kills in that short span of time would still indicate a pretty impressive fighting ability, even if it meant that he wasn't doing much in terms of body-count before then. (Assuming the time period was an hour, that would be something like 1 kill per 3 minutes.)
Legolas, in contrast, only gained a few counts. At most 4, if we assume that he resumed count at 20. Perhaps not as many orcs made it to the walls, or up the walls while others were pushing back the invaders at the culvert.
Uruks use gunpowder to blow out the culvert. More ladders come up to the walls.
Over the wall and under the wall the last assault came sweeping like a dark wave upon a hill of sand. The defense was swept away.
Everyone retreats into the Hornburg. Legolas shoots his last (retrieved) arrow. Gimli and Eomer are both left down below in the din.
Legolas: “But I wish that he had come this way. I desired to tell Master Gimli that my tale is now thirty-nine.”
39 - 24 = 15, done in the short amount of time for the walls to be breached, overwhelmed, and for the good guys to retreat. This is probably the primary indication of Legolas' melee/knife fighting skills in the whole book. No real indication of how many by arrow and how many by knife though, but I doubt he could've picked up that many arrows between the dialogue following the first culvert-invasion and the rush of events just now. (Again, assuming a time period of 1 hour, this would be like 1 kill per 4 minutes.)
Aragorn wonders where everyone is, then talks with Theoden. Aragorn & Legolas go around helping the defenders w/ the grappling hooks and ladders.
As he looked forth he saw the eastern sky grow pale. Then he raised his empty hand, palm outward in token of parley.
So this would be maybe 6-7 a.m.?
Aragorn blah blah's with the orcs. The gate gets blasted open. Theoden & Aragorn with company ride out, cleaving a path to the dike. By light of day we see Fangorn forest come to Dusina--er--Rohan. Gandalf arrives with Erkenbrand. Orcs run into the forest in panic and get mulched.
There came Gamling the Old, and Eomer son of Eomund, and beside them walked Gimli the dwarf. He had no helm, and about his head was a linen band stained with blood; but his voice was loud and strong.
“Forty-two, Master Legolas!” he cried. “Alas!” My axe is notched: the forty-second had an iron collar on his neck. How is it with you?”
“You have passed my score by one,” answered Legolas.
41 - 39 = 2 during the "ride out and cleave a path" part. I guess either Legolas isn't all that good at horseback-knife-fighting or he didn't count the ones he stampeded over or knocked away. Only fatalities he was sure of, perhaps?
42 - 21 = 21, which Gimli got between the retreat from the walls and taking cover in Aglarond with Eomer. Compared to Legolas' 15 from above, it's numerically more impressive. However, this may also be due to more time spent out here the orcs were pressing the hardest (and most numerous), and for a longer time, arguably, depending on how far away the caves were in comparison to the Hornburg. (If we use the 1 hour estimate once more, this is again about 1 kill per 3 minutes.)
Also, let's note that both Gimli and his main weapon are both worse for the wear coming out, though it's nothing severe. Legolas, we might presume, remained pristine. ^_~
Overall Analysis:
I think the book is a bit more realistic with the numbers, at least. The bulk of both our heroes' counts come from brief but heavy spurts of fighting, which would account for the fact that why beings of their skill wouldn't have counts in the one-hundreds if they had been fighting midnight-to-dawn straight. (If we assume at least 6 hours, and an average of 1 kill every 3 minutes, that would still be at least 20x6=120 kills, almost three times their actual amounts. Or at 1 kill/4 minutes, 15x6=90 kills, more thn twice their actual amounts.)
What happened in the movie, extended edition, disc 2:
(Narrative summary is in blue. Dialogue summary in red. This is starting from scene 49.)
Segment 1 (~5 minutes of screen time):
Night time (call it midnight). It starts to rain. The Uruks come and do their challenge thing, then rush the fort. The elves and men start raining arrows. Ladders are raised and fighting breaks out on the walls.
Gimli: "Two!" Legolas:"I'm on 17!"
More shots of fighting. Gimli chops two more (+2).
Legolas: "Nineteen!"
End segment (scene switches to Treebeard).
Considering the whole scene took like 5 minutes, that's some fast shooting. In fact, when we pan over the elves as they're shooting from the walls, it's apparant that they're doing the standard 'semi-automatic bow' thing, shooting one arrow immediately after another like they don't even need to stop and aim. All lethally, o'course.
And just for Legolas, 19 kills in 5 minutes is like... almost 4 kills per minute, or one per 15 seconds. Of course, that's not even top speed, since it looks like he didn't spend every moment of it shooting. Gotta move around to avoid struggling fighters and return arrows, perhaps?
Segment 2 (~10 minutes of screen time):
Gimli: "17... 18... 19... 20... 21... 22..." (fades out)
He does this in less than a minute. o_O In explicit dialogue, no less. So at *least*, 6 kills per minute, or a kill per 10 seconds. Ouch.
Uruks sneak a ram behind closed shields up to the gate and starts ramming. Theoden unthinkingly invokes Murphy's Law. Uruks use gunpowder to blow up the culvert. (We see Legolas and Gimli each take out at least one uruk. +1 to each.)
Legolas then does his skateboard scene, which involves 4 arrow shots, one uruk impaled on the skate-shield, and 1 death by knife (hand-held arrow?). (L +6)
Note: That's 6 kills in less than a minute right there too. Pure number/time-crunching-wise, Legolas isn't behind Gimli. The kill speed in this one and the previous counting dialgue is about the same, more or less.
End segment (we switch to Treebeard again).
Segment 3 (~10 minutes onscreen) Takes place right after the previous segment.
We see Gimli take out one orc in the background (G +1). And Legolas, I think, two (L +2) when he whips out the knives.
Theodens calls for Aragorn & his troops to fall back. Legolas and another elf drags Gimli away from the fight. Haldir gets killed. Aragorn, in a moment of insanity, jumps down on a ladder, then works back in through the gate. Theoden wants some time to brace the door. Aragorn and Gimli jumpes/gets tossed onto the causeway and hold off the Uruks there.
I counted about 7 kills for Gimli in this segment, not counting the uruks that just got knocked off the bridge without a weapon hitting them, or the ones that Aragorn whacked. (G +7)
Legolas shoots down a ladder that's dropping onto the Hornburg. I counted at least 20 uruks on the ladder.
I don't think that many Uruks got squished though, since a falling ladder is dodgeable unless you're on it. Also, I guess Legolas didn't count this part on his final body-count, else he'd already have significantly more than 42 total by now.
Legolas throws a rope down and pulls Aragorn & Gimli up. Theoden calls to fall back again. In the wide shot, we see Aragorn rushing after Theoden, and the elf immediately following him - presumably Legolas - makes 4 more shots with bow/arrow down into the occupied lower levels. (L +4) No uruks around for Gimli to whack though.
End segment. Blah blah about Treebeard, Osgiliath.
Segment 4: (~ 5 minutes onscreen)
Theoden and Aragorn does the ride out and meet them thing. Gimli is blowing the horn on the roof, so no fight scenes. Legolas is riding along, and I counted maybe 7 swings total that he makes at the uruks; let's be generous and assume they were all kills. (L + 7)
Overall Analysis:
The final count in the movie for the duo is Gimli - 43 and Legolas - 42. (One more for each than the book, for some strange reason.)
On screen: 19+1+6+2+4+7=39 for Legolas and 22+1+1+7=31 for Gimli... which isn't higher than their stated totals (a good thing, else it'd be somewhat embarrassing). However, the whole time sequence that we saw onscreen was probably less than 30 minutes (it took me about 45 minutes from when I turned on the DVD to when I turned it off, including flipping through scenes/chapters, pausing to count stuff, and rewinding segments to rewatch). Given that the fight lasts from night well into morning, I really doubt that either of our duo spent *a lot* of time doing nothing. Unlike the book, the pacing and events of the movie simply doesn't allow for it.
In conclusion:
While the ~40 count is okay for the book version, it really doesn't fit *at all* in the context of the movie. The movie versions should have accumulated much higher body-counts.
As for Legolas vs. Gimli... Well, in terms of kill rate, the book version of Gimli *might* *arguably* have a slightly faster kill rate than Legolas. However, Legolas came out in better condition from the battle. In the movie, both of them are killing machines with murderous kill-rates. Yes, that includes Legolas in knife/sword-only melee. No definite answers either way.
Me? I'm inclined to think half-half either way in melee. 5/10 each.
(Disclaimer: The conclusions and analysis that I make from the scenes are highly speculative given the ambiguity present in both film and book. They should not be taken as canon. Canonicity belongs only to the explicit quotations.)
Addendum:
I was inspired in this entry by a debate on the Rumbles board. After linking my above analysis to the argument, I then had to proceed to defend my conclusions and clarify my points from other posters. Since the discussion is now long over, I'm going to repost those parts of the debate to do with this entry here for completeness's sake.
Jared:
There is good point raised though. Not everyone Legolas hits with arrow is neccessarily a kill. With his super vision, he may well be able to tell exactly how many he's shot dead on the spot, and how many were merely wounded and removed from the action.
Me:
quote: There is good point raised though. Not everyone Legolas hits with arrow is neccessarily a kill.
This point was also answered in my reply in that journal entry.
We've only see *one* indication of Legolas' arrows not being *immediately* lethal, and that was a case of plot mandate. If you're going to just assume that large portions of targets he shoots with his arrows didn't die, then we'd also have to assume that a large portion of uruks that Gimli hits in the movie also survived, since it typically takes him more than one blow to kill an uruk.
Quite frankly, though, the on screen performance of both is against either of those assumptions.
quote: With his super vision, he may well be able to tell exactly how many he's shot dead on the spot, and how many were merely wounded and removed from the action.
Unfortunately, I really doubt Legolas could afford to take a couple of minutes off from battle to just stand there and stare at the guy he just shot just to make sure the dude finally dies. Not to mention everyone moving around making that kind of LOS-tracking difficult.
Jared:
quote: Quite frankly, though, the on screen performance of both is against either of those assumptions.
It's the only way to make sense of his stated kill count though. Either that, or every time during the battle when he's *not* on camera, he's cowering behind a wall not fighting anyone.
quote: Unfortunately, I really doubt Legolas could afford to take a couple of minutes off from battle to just stand there and stare at the guy he just shot just to make sure the dude finally dies. Not to mention everyone moving around making that kind of LOS-tracking difficult.
I don't think he's doing that. But he's got the equivelant of an autozoom for his eysight. He can see right away if he's hit the heart, or through the throat/head or some other definatly fatal spot. If not, given what we've seen of Uruk durability, he can probably assume the target doesn't die, at least not *directly* from his shot.
Me:
quote: It's the only way to make sense of his stated kill count though. Either that, or every time during the battle when he's *not* on camera, he's cowering behind a wall not fighting anyone.
And I suppose Gimli was cowering right alongside him whenever not on screen too?
Jared:
Perhaps they had a game of blackjack going. :p
Gordon:
quote: There is good point raised though. Not everyone Legolas hits with arrow is neccessarily a kill.
Perhaps not, but Legolas can reasonably assume that the vast majority of his targets are either dead, or will be dead, within moments of being hit. Legolas shoots to kill, with every shot aimed at a critical location on the target, and he *never* misses. Even a victim who doesn't go down from shock and trauma *immediately*, can, on the basis of past experience, be expected to bleed out and die very shortly anyhow-after all, none of Legolas' opponents have access to Elvish medical skills (or a sophistcated emergency care system) that might save them from a normally fatal wound. Even that suicide bomber orc Legolas failed to kill immediately would have gone down eventually-it's just that he had just enough stamina to last long enough to carry out his mission. This is not necessarily indicative of a failure of Legolas' archery skills, but rather, reflects the reality of how tough some beings can be to kill instantly.
quote: With his super vision, he may well be able to tell exactly how many he's shot dead on the spot, and how many were merely wounded and removed from the action.
He's more likely to do a recount of the victms during the after-battle cleanup.
Jared:
quote: Perhaps not, but Legolas can reasonably assume that the vast majority of his targets are either dead, or will be dead, within moments of being hit. Legolas shoots to kill, with every shot aimed at a critical location on the target, and he *never* misses.
That's not neccessarily true. ISTR one of his shots against the cave troll bounced off because he hit too hard a surface as the troll was thrashing around while he was aiming. But moreover, in Helm's Deep, he fails to take out the suicide bomber with multiple hits around the shoulder area. If he truly had perfect aim, he wouldn't have. He is *superhumanly* good, not doubt about that, but he's not Bullseye with a bow. If he were, he'd have killed that guy with one shot, perhaps through an eye.
quote: Even a victim who doesn't go down from shock and trauma *immediately*, can, on the basis of past experience, be expected to bleed out and die very shortly anyhow-
Remember we're not talking about humans here.
quote: He's more likely to do a recount of the victms during the after-battle cleanup.
I suppose that's possible. I don't recall, are his arrows visibly different from those used by the other elves?
Me:
quote: That's not neccessarily true. ISTR one of his shots against the cave troll bounced off because he hit too hard a surface as the troll was thrashing around while he was aiming.
A cave troll is not an Uruk. The comparison is pointless. Legolas couldn't have known before hand that a regular arrow into the troll's hide would not deal much damage to it, hence why he was experimenting with different tactics (such as jumping on top and shooting its head, and then later shooting down its throat) in the course of that fight.
quote: But moreover, in Helm's Deep, he fails to take out the suicide bomber with multiple hits around the shoulder area. If he truly had perfect aim, he wouldn't have. He is *superhumanly* good, not doubt about that, but he's not Bullseye with a bow. If he were, he'd have killed that guy with one shot, perhaps through an eye.
As I said before. Of all the shots we see him make in the Helm's Deep fight (and in Parth Galen too, if we add that scene) where we also see what happens to the target of his arrows, the suicide bomber Uruk was the ONLY one who didn't immediately fall. This is clearly a case of plot mandate.
As for shooting an immediate kill-spot: recall the positions of the two of them. The Uruk was practically at the foot of the walls, whereas Legolas was on top of said wall and to the side. The angle of their positions would not have made a shot to the eyes possible, unless Legolas can somehow cause his arrows to do 90 degree turns in midair, or the Uruk was looking up. From the angle he was at, the shots he made were the optimal ones possible given his position. This is not a slight on Legolas' abilities, unless you want him to be telekinetic.
Of course, with the suicide bomber orc, that was a target which was chosen for Legolas. Aragorn told him to shoot the thing. Normally, I think we can assume that Legolas has the common sense to shoot outwards at Uruks further away at the wall, where he would have a better angle of approach; or he'd be shooting at the Uruks which had already gained the walls.
quote: Remember we're not talking about humans here.
Remember that he has gone up against Uruks before in Parth Galen. He's not totally ignorant of Uruk Hai physical abilities.
Besides, the majority of the Uruks at Helm's Deep were *not* anywhere near Lurtz's ability and stats (otherwise a horde who can individually give Aragorn a run for his money is going to slaughter the ragtag Rohirrim defenders easily). We see throughout the Helm's Deep scenes of Uruks falling from shots or blows that you'd expect would work on humans.
Not to mention which, *Legolas* was the one in the movie who notes to the other elves where the Uruk weak points are in their armor. It stands to reason that there wouldn't be any point to fire at non-lethal areas in the first place, since the only lethal area he could shoot at without hitting armor was in the neck. And, of course, the vast majority of the Uruks at HD were armored. The suicide bomber Uruk was the sole exception, which made the non-immediately-lethal shots even possible. This also means that outside of the sucide bomber Uruk, Legolas ought to be reasonably sure of which of his shots killed his targets (ie. all of them).
quote: I suppose that's possible. I don't recall, are his arrows visibly different from those used by the other elves?
The first quiver had Mirkwood fletchings. After that, whereever he got the refill arrows from, they were probably Galadhrim. Assuming, of course, he did refill, and didn't just have some sort of freaky magic quiver.
Jared:
quote: A cave troll is not an Uruk. The comparison is pointless.
With regards to whether his aim is truly perfect, it is not. *Perfect* means without flaw. In which case, every shot he ever fires should be through the eyeball into the brain. Not much can survive that.
quote: Legolas couldn't have known before hand that a regular arrow into the troll's hide would not deal much damage to it,
You really think that an Elven warrior prince doesn't know anything about cave trolls?
quote: As I said before. Of all the shots we see him make in the Helm's Deep fight (and in Parth Galen too, if we add that scene) where we also see what happens to the target of his arrows, the suicide bomber Uruk was the ONLY one who didn't immediately fall. This is clearly a case of plot mandate.
Which doesn't mean that all shots he takes *off camera* are the same way. Besides, if some of his hits aren't fatal, then we're left with no explanation for why his body count is so low.
quote: As for shooting an immediate kill-spot: recall the positions of the two of them.
I don't have the scene in front of me, but it seemd to be that he was firing from in front of, and above the orc. Considering where his other shots hit, he could have gone for the face, the groin, or the feet. Hell, why didn't he just shoot the hand carrying the torch?
quote: Besides, the majority of the Uruks at Helm's Deep were *not* anywhere near Lurtz's ability and stats (otherwise a horde who can individually give Aragorn a run for his money is going to slaughter the ragtag Rohirrim defenders easily). We see throughout the Helm's Deep scenes of Uruks falling from shots or blows that you'd expect would work on humans.
True, but in those cases, we're talking about major traumas that would be instant, or near instantly fatal for humans. But a wound that might kill human after hours, or days, without medical attention, I think an orc would be more likely to survive. Considering the way they live, they're probalby extremely resistant to infection. And given their fight-happy nature, they probably sustain lots of injuries throughout their lives. Hell, remember the orc from RoTK who looked like Sloth, but with one eye?
quote: The first quiver had Mirkwood fletchings. After that, whereever he got the refill arrows from, they were probably Galadhrim. Assuming, of course, he did refill, and didn't just have some sort of freaky magic quiver.
The magic quiver is most unlikely, given that there's nothing like that in the books, and the movie doesn't suggest it?
So either Legolas took very, very, few shots while the camera wasn't looking, or some of his shots weren't kills. Or he lied, which is doubtful given his character and every indication is that he really did want to outscore Gimli.
Me:
quote: With regards to whether his aim is truly perfect, it is not. *Perfect* means without flaw. In which case, every shot he ever fires should be through the eyeball into the brain. Not much can survive that.
quote: You really think that an Elven warrior prince doesn't know anything about cave trolls?
For one thing, the first shots he made at the cave troll was right into the area where its heart should've been (slightly to the side from the center of the chest). When that didn't work, he made the next shots from the top of its head. The last attack was made down its throat.
Aside from the double-arrow into its side that was obviously done for the sole purpose of distracting it from an impending attack on a fellow Fellowship member, the three attacks that Legolas made on the troll quite obviously indicates a progression of experiments on where the thing was vulnerable.
So also quite obviously, his arrows were going quite flawlessly wherever he wanted them to go. The fact that where he wanted them to go weren't the right places is utterly irrelevant. The point is that the cave troll scene does not give any indications that Legolas *tried* and somehow missed hitting a spot he was aiming for. Therefore, there is no evidence from that scene to suggest that he was habitually inaccurate enough to miss a large percentage of targets at in Helm's Deep.
As for the tangent regarding cave trolls - recall that there are different breeds of trolls in ME, with different attributes. The only caves located in Mirkwood were the halls where the elves lived. So no, I doubt Legolas had a lot of training versus cave trolls, beyond possibly the theoretical. His actions in the cave troll fight support this theory, since he obviously starts off not knowing the weak spot on that thing and has to find it through trial and error.
quote: Which doesn't mean that all shots he takes *off camera* are the same way.
So now we can assume whatever the heck we want of characters despite their on screen showings just because we want to? How convenient.
I think I'll stick to judging Legolas' (and Gimli's, for that matter) off screen skill levels by their on screen showings.
quote: Besides, if some of his hits aren't fatal,
All of two to three shots on the same Uruk, and then only because said Uruk lasted an extra couple of seconds. Compared to the dozens that he wastes with a single arrow each (or sometimes, a single arrow for multiple kills).
quote: then we're left with no explanation for why his body count is so low.
The explanation is simple. The script writers were too busy trying to match up the body counts to the book-canon (even though they were off by one for both) and didn't take into account of the changes made to the battle at Helm's Deep in the movie version. A plot hole, much like the never-empty quiver.
Not to mention, even if you cast Legolas into the worst (and entirely unfounded) possible light and have him miss more than 3/4ths of his shots, it still wouldn't explain *Gimli's* low kill-count either. Unless now Gimli's axe hits are non-lethal for the most part also?
quote: I don't have the scene in front of me, but it seemd to be that he was firing from in front of, and above the orc. Considering where his other shots hit, he could have gone for the face, the groin, or the feet. Hell, why didn't he just shoot the hand carrying the torch?
From top, yes. From front? No. When Legolas made his shots, the Uruk was a mere 15 seconds or so away from the culvert. Hitting the groin or the feet would've been impossible unless the arrows go through the body to do so (and if they could've bisected the Uruk, there wouldn't've been any need to). Hitting the hand would've been unwise because obviously the torch would be in the way, both in terms of targetting and in terms of contact.
As well, had it been any other uruk (such as the ones we do see falling on screen), an arrow to the chest where Legolas had planted them in that scene would've have certainly dropped it. So yes, there was quite a bit of Plot Mandate and possibly PIS at play in that scene.
quote: True, but in those cases, we're talking about major traumas that would be instant, or near instantly fatal for humans. But a wound that might kill human after hours, or days, without medical attention, I think an orc would be more likely to survive. Considering the way they live, they're probalby extremely resistant to infection. And given their fight-happy nature, they probably sustain lots of injuries throughout their lives.
You're not listening. I'm not *speculating* that the Uruks should go down and stay down when they take a "normal" hit like the ones at Helm's Deep. I'm *telling* you they did, based on what I saw on the screen. Aside from the olympic flame orc (see above), every freaking time Legolas shoots an Uruk on screen, we see the Uruk fall. And we explicitly hear Legolas add two to this kill-count after downing two Uruks precisely in that way. Obviously, *he* thought his shots were lethal enough.
quote: The magic quiver is most unlikely, given that there's nothing like that in the books, and the movie doesn't suggest it?
*sigh* I was being facetious. The only time I've heard mentions of a magic quiver was in parodies and in one particular fanfic. Not that it wouldn't be an interesting way to explain away that particular plot hole...
quote: So either Legolas took very, very, few shots while the camera wasn't looking, or some of his shots weren't kills. Or he lied, which is doubtful given his character and every indication is that he really did want to outscore Gimli.
Both of them had less counts than their on screen abilities indicate. I would love to explain it away like maybe they were using a hexidecimal number system or something, but it's probably best to leave it the plot hole that it is and rely on onscreen showings to support fight debates than to blindly rely on two lines of dialogue.
Jared:
quote: Both of them had less counts than their on screen abilities indicate. I would love to explain it away like maybe they were using a hexidecimal number system or something, but it's probably best to leave it the plot hole that it is and rely on onscreen showings to support fight debates than to blindly rely on two lines of dialogue.
That's not an in-universe explanation though. Peter Jackson directed those battle scenes, yet also saw fit to go with kill counts similar to those from the book. And he's a filmaker who likes attention to detail. I would think that in some way, it should make sense. The only explanations I currently see that could work, in-universe are...
A)Legolas doesn't believe that every shot he makes should be considered a fatality.
B)Legolas is lying when he says 42 (41?) to avoid making Gimli feel bad.
C) For some odd reason, Legolas is doing very little fighting during moments that aren't visible to the viewer. This could probaby apply to Gimli as well.
Also, Legolas probably didn't count the guys on the ladder. (that could also possibly go under B)
And I don't dispute him having super duper aim. But were his aim truly *flawless*, he could have hit that cave troll right in the eyeballs at almost any time during the fight. He might not be an expert on troll breeds and their various physilogies, but the eyes are a weakpoint on just about everything.
Me:
quote: That's not an in-universe explanation though. Peter Jackson directed those battle scenes, yet also saw fit to go with kill counts similar to those from the book. And he's a filmaker who likes attention to detail. I would think that in some way, it should make sense.
You're giving Peter Jackson too much credit in this particular instance. It's pretty clear they were trying to keep the numbers similar to book canon (like most extended edition scenes), despite the on screen performances of the characters. It pays as much attention to detail as the ever-full quiver.
quote: A)Legolas doesn't believe that every shot he makes should be considered a fatality.
Which is untrue, since he counts 17 kills in the first two minutes or so of the attack, when the Uruks were the furthest from his position (charging across to the walls). Later shots tended to be made at point blank range, and he could've scarcely done *worse* in those cases.
quote: B)Legolas is lying when he says 42 (41?) to avoid making Gimli feel bad.
Also untrue, since in the movie, Legolas gives his count *first*. He had no idea what Gimli's count was to try and make him feel better. Not to mention which the attitude he presented when he reports his score was definitely one that wasn't giving an inch.
quote: C) For some odd reason, Legolas is doing very little fighting during moments that aren't visible to the viewer. This could probaby apply to Gimli as well.
Possible, but highly unlikely, since they were both in the thick of battle the entire time and I doubt the Uruks would just leave them alone.
quote: Also, Legolas probably didn't count the guys on the ladder. (that could also possibly go under B)
I didn't count the guys on the ladder either. Otherwise Legolas would have more than 42 kills *on screen*, rather than only more than 42 kills via extrapolation.
quote: And I don't dispute him having super duper aim. But were his aim truly *flawless*, he could have hit that cave troll right in the eyeballs at almost any time during the fight.
If you look closely at the facial renditions of the cave troll in the appendices of the film, you'll see that the structure of its eyes/eyebrows/eye ridges makes it hard if not impossible for a decent sized arrowhead to get in there. And even if the arrow somehow got in there, it would more likely only blind the troll instead of killing it.
Look, the concept of a "flawless aim" is that the arrow hits exactly where you want it to hit, no more, no less. It's definition does *not* include hitting somewhere else where you didn't mean for it to hit, no matter if that would've done more damage. The fact that Legolas did not *try* for an eye shot does not mean his aim was flawed; it just means he didn't think to try for an eye-shot. In other words, the cave troll scene has nothing to do with Legolas' aim.
quote: He might not be an expert on troll breeds and their various physilogies, but the eyes are a weakpoint on just about everything.
That doesn't mean his first instinct is to shoot everything through the eyes. Obviously, he's trained to shoot at heads, necks, chests, etc as we see in his scenes against most foes. He didn't know that the cave troll wouldn't be harmed by his arrow; therefore it's not some major failing of his (especially in regards to AIM) that his first shot was into its chest.
