Ratio x Aventurine Pet Peeves & Headcanon
Sep. 19th, 2024 12:19 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
tanithryudoSo Ratio x Aventurine is the ship I've been following after mostly giving up on the JYxDH ship.
There's more fics in this ship, so naturally there's also a larger number of badfic along with the ok-fic and good-fic. It still means I have to slog through a lot of the badfic, even after automatically filtering the ones that are recognizably bad from the title/summary/tags before even clicking in (I mean, WTF does ice skater AU make any sort of sense? Or there's the genderflip/trans AUs..)
Still, I still get to actually read a lot of badfic before closing them out. Or even decent fic that is ok in some parts while still driving me nuts in others. So while this is on my mind, I might as well also get it off my chest...
Pet Peeves in Fanfic
1. Copy pasta of toxic relationships from bad romance novels
This is more egregious in CN fandom. Most commonly, the top character gets turned into a stereotype in toxic masculinity (or worse), and the bottom character gets turned into a weepy damsel in distress.
Or as I also see it in bad BG (or even BL) romance novels: Is the internalized misogyny so bad that this readership can't tell romance from abuse? Or worse, actually enjoy reading and fantasizing about toxic relationships?
Ratio in some ways has it better when he's the top character. He "only" gets to be cast as an insensitive and caustic jerk, prone to jealous fits and being forcible in sex. Yes, completely OOC, but also very obviously being replaced by the very common male lead stereotype in many CN novels. And of course, to make up the other half of this pairing, Aventurine gets turned into an emotionally weak/needy/insecure mess...totally ignoring his actual background of relying on his own wits and mental fortitude to claw his way out of slavery to get to the top of the social ladder.
When Aventurine is top...oh boy. I can't count the number of fics I've read which turn him into a crazy psycho and/or outright rapist. Like, the worst of romance novels where non-consensual sex is considered a perfectly "reasonable" lead up into the "romance" between the male and female lead... yeah, that gets shoved onto this pairing more often than you'd think. And of course, in order to become the victim of this setup, Ratio is pretty much stripped of his intelligence/ability/background.
2. The love-addled perfect BF fantasy
This is sorta a 1.5 in that it's also about the horrid tropy depiction of characters, usually the "top" character in the pairing. In this case, it's Aventurine, the more popular character, that typically suffers from this, and becomes a love-addled "恋爱脑".
Symptoms are basically becoming an idiot who's only thoughts revolve around his partner, engaging in ostentations displays of affection (that are really more socially embarrassing than romantic if it happened in real life), and having a constantly-on libido.
In these kind of stories, the second hand embarrassment alone will give me the goosebumps. The blatant OOC is...yeah, doesn't really need further pointing out, does it?
3. Completely forgetting this is a sci-fi/fantasy setting
This most often happens in action sequences, where some random mooks from primitive planet X are made into actual threats to our heroes by dint of just waving a gun around. Or setting up some hurt/comfort fics by making someone freaking die or get critically injured from a freaking car accident. Or, our heroes get their guns/personal effects taken from them (due to security policies or at gunpoint or some other method) and suddenly become helpless.
Maybe sometimes, some writers will remember that Aventurine has shields. But rarely do they figure into the fact that he actually wields 1/10 of the power of an Emanator of Preservation. People also forget that in canon, the only threat that was posed to Aventurine was Sunday and Acheron. Sunday was a representative of Harmony (actually Order) at the center of their power. Acheron is an Emanator, nuff said.
For Ratio, writers might sometimes remember he can throw ballistic chalk. But much more rarely do people remember that he was shown to have a phased flame, aka. personal teleporter. Or that he can summon statues, pillars, a freaking chess set, etc. - as a personal ability to summon objects with Imaginary power. (For that matter, Aventurine's shields are also based on imaginary power, and he can obviously extend/retract it as needed.)
Generally, IMO they also ought to have a freaking personal inventory to carry stuff, like Ratio's chess set and his headgear. Similar to how the members of the Astral Express are often seen materializing weapons out of nowhere. I would say personal inventories would be something that's pretty common.
4. Taking domesticity too far
This usually comes across with at least one person of the pairing, usually the top character, automatically becoming a great/experienced chef and showing off cooking skill to his partner. It's an obvious general romance trope that just doesn't really fit with these characters.
And clean. This skill is usually attributed to Ratio as a germaphobe. Even though, his actual dialogue was that he has figurative "洁癖" where it comes to idiots, not *literal* germaphobia. But fine.
Dr. Ratio from all cues comes from a privileged social status. He most likely skipped grades to get to high school, and was taking university classes from a professor that then recommended him to Veritas Prime. Why would a teen be expected to learn to cook and clean? At university, he very obviously spent a lot of time and focus achieving the 8 degrees and various achievements that he has. Why would he need to spend time on learning to cook...when there is a thing called the synthesizer in-universe which can make foods preprogrammed into it? Or clean, when even modern day, there's a thing called roombas. For a guy with degrees in engineering and comp sci, even? Hello?
As for Aventurine, he grew up on a poor planet and then became a slave who was primarily used for blood sports. I can buy him knowing basic forage for the planet he came from, but not more than that. Then after becoming part of the IPC, money wouldn't have been an issue anymore. Why would he spend time that's better spent climbing the corporate ladder to cook and clean, when he has so many other options that money can buy? Dining out, takeout, synthesizer with pre-programmed meals... Like, I can understand he might not want to have actual hired help in his personal space doing the cleaning due to trust issues. But again, roombas. You can't tell me this settings doesn't have anything better.
5. Dr Ratio's talks like a thesaurus / talks with insults
The former I blame on writers not knowing how to write smart people and mistake using big words for showing off smarts.
The latter I blame more on the English localization and VA. In all 3 other languages, Dr. Ratio's VA talks like a normal person. In the EN version, the VA was told to over-act, resulting in sounding much more pompous / insulting voice. Plus, some of his lines are badly translated; most notably his join team with Aventurine dialog is merely advisory sounding in CN, but becomes an outright accusation in EN.
Also, just learned about this tidbit regarding the voice direction of JP and KR VAs for Ratio. I assume the CN VA also got similar direction, which points toward a calm and logical characterization. Entirely different from the overblown pompousness of the EN voice direction. As in the thread, I wonder if this difference in voice direction is coming from different attitudes towards teachers and geniuses in eastern vs western culture.
6. Dr. Ratio's socio-economic status
First, on Dr. Ratio's side. Although we don't get any outright info on his family economic background, we do know he grew up in an environment where he did not have any trouble getting access to education above his normal age level. Thus it's safe to say that he doesn't come from a "poor" household. However, there's nothing to indicate that he's be from a "rich" household either.
As for the living standard of his home planet, it's hard to gauge. Professor Rand was able to recommend him to the University of Veritas Prime, so the professor must have had friends and peers there. On the other hand, he also says that local schools are lacking in advanced science programs. Now, that could be taken at face value, or he could mean that there is local programs, just not suited to someone of Ratio's intelligence. I'd lean more towards the latter, since otherwise why would he be there.
From in story depictions of Dr. Ratio, he isn't an ivory tower kind of scholar either. So given his achievements, especially in physics/engineering/medicine, it's likely that he has plenty of patents under his name, and a generous amount of income coming from that alone.
On the other hand, given his philosophy that education should be freely available to all, it's likely that in areas that benefit the masses (like medicine), he likely wouldn't be trying to make too much off those patents.
On the third tentacle, given that he's had a long collab history with the IPC, including the aid of designing weapons (which doesn't show up in his list of accomplishments, which implies that he might not be the primary lead on that project)... I think it's safe to say that he *knows* what kind of research, or how to present his research, would easily get outside funding if need be.
That is to say, when writers depict him as stressed out and having trouble securing funding for personal projects (and need Aventurine to come in and save the day), it just breaks my SOD.
Of course, if it's Aventurine who's taking the initiative at throwing money at his boyfriend because he has so much of it that even the equivalent of pocket money is a huge sum, then I'm fine with it.
7. Aventurine's socio-economic status
Rarely have I seen people get this right, especially on Aventurine's side due to being overshadowed by his tragic past history. But the thing is, that is *history*. It's not the present.
At present, Aventurine is P45, which makes him the upper management of IPC. He's a boss, and not just the kind you fight. He's the 霸道总裁 role, but no one actually writes this (or if they do, it's more psycho and less CEO). He's *not* the poor overworked 007 worker stressing out about filing reports by a deadline, but people tend to write him in this role instead because they've got woobie-googles on and that's the role the writer emphasizes with.
We explicitly had Topaz and Aventurine offer a project manager job role to the Trailblazer in game, and then Topaz sassing Aventurine about how he overworks his lackeys. From the dialogue, my impression is that the main difference between these two are quality vs quantity. That is, Aventurine doesn't work as many projects as Topaz does, but he ends up working the harder projects, and thus suffers a slightly lower success rate. (Not to mention, that he even has a failure rate at all is good proof that he doesn't gamble his life at the drop of a hat, unlike how a lot of h/c fics write him. Penacony is just a special case.)
Also, I gotta say, the way that many writers keep bringing up his slave background as a attack vector during negotiations or when threatened by villains or whatever... feels like a clear case of not having worked in society (接受社会毒打). When you are successful enough, people will tend to automatically forget about the "failures" in your history. In business, success is all that needs to speak for itself. People should be flocking around him to brownose like mad, not throwing insults where he can overhear and potentially break their careers. Sure, there would be people jealous of his success, but any such sentiments should be kept in the privacy of their own minds, and not voice anywhere that could potentially get back to him. (Like, this is why standard job search tip is to make sure all of your social media history should be scrubbed clean of potential controversial topics!)
At the same time, there's some writers who go overboard the other direction, such as having Aventurine owning multiple mansions or something like that. It's not that he can't afford it, but we do have a glimpse of what his bedroom looks like from the concert clip where it showed him rooming with 3 cat cakes. And his bedroom looks to be pretty normally decorated that it wouldn't be out of question to be a IPC single dorm or condo. It makes sense if you see his gaudy clothing as something aimed for psychological warfare, and not necessarily reflecting other aspects of his life. A more perfunctory private aesthetic where it wouldn't reflect on him to outside eyes would also make sense given his background.
Some headcannon:
* Dr. Ratio's 8 doctorate degrees
There are some things I don't like about the canon as well. For instance, it's guilty of having writers who obviously never got an actual bachelor's degree from an university doing the writing. Because the 8 doctoral degrees thing is *so* unnecessary.
I mean, look at Newton, he only had a degree in math, but that doesn't stop him from being a pioneer in fields like astronomy, economics, physics, etc. Look at the famous founders of various tech companies in Silicon Valley - like, Bill Gates didn't need a degree from Harvard to found Microsoft.
Getting an academic degree in a subject is NOT the same as being a famous pioneer in it, nor is it an prerequisite to getting outstanding achievements from that field! For that matter, having more degrees does not necessarily make you look smarter; it just makes you look like...someone who's boxed himself into the bureaucratic system. Actual achievements without a degree are a much more visceral depiction of "genius", see every "child genius" story trope out there.
This is why my personal headcanon is that most of those 8 degrees are actually honorary ones foisted on Dr. Ratio by his university. Because they use him as PR in attracting students, funding, etc. And/or to increase leverage in their representation in the Intelligentsia Guild. And/or to boost their rep when dealing with the IPC. So forth.
IMO the only degree he needs to have is the math one, because that's the foundation of all sciences. The rest of it, mathematics will naturally lead into studies in physics and research in comp sci (as someone who came out of EECS, the theory side of this field is pretty much all math). Considering that his known accomplishments in these fields are papers on the theory side of things, it's not unlikely that it was his new proofs in math which naturally led to the follow up theories in physics, and utilization in computation.
Then from physics + comp sci, his achievements in these two fields could naturally lead into implementations on the engineering side. Hence, leading the R&D team on revolutionary energy generation. This is probably at the point where he came up on the radar of the IPC as a distinct person of interest separate from his University.
Meanwhile, given the cosmology setup of the Star Rail universe, high level theoretical physics will automatically lead into metaphysical studies of the Aeons, and thus lead into theology and philosophy. I could see Dr. Ratio also getting a degree in Theology as the only other degree he might bother to actively pursue. This I would put during the time frame when he might still be hoping for the gaze of Nous. And the process of gaining this degree may also be his process of working through his personal philosophy vs the Path of Erudition, and eventually coming to terms with not entering the Genius Society. And possibly also, choosing to co-stride the Path of the Hunt. (See Penman Equation)
IMO, the point at which he gave up on pure Erudition and the Genius Society is likely also when he joined the Intelligentsia Guild. That said, this would also be around the time of the test firing of the anti-planetary weapon that Ratio worked on in collab with the IPC (as per his character lore). So it's likely that Ratio's relationship with the IPC started as an independent one before his joining the Guild, and is separate from the Guild's own relationship with the IPC. That he became a member of the central Mundanite Council so quickly in the Guild though, could as much be due to his own achievements as due to his own standing with the IPC, which has a lot of strings on the Guild.
As for his remaining "degrees" in biology and medicine, I'm less sure about how to fit in. Especially since an actual practicing medical degree will require clinical rotations and residencies and stuff which takes time and can't be handwaved away with "genius" (except in fiction, unfortunately).
Going back to his list of achievements though, I am inclined to go the route of: someone Ratio knows personally, maybe a friend or family member was afflicted by "lithogenesis", which became the catalyst for him to look into this disease and dip in the biological sciences. Then of course, self study becomes expertise, and then some "eureka" moments resulting in the development of a cure. It's also my headcanon that at this point, Ratio already had his own private lab and sufficient private funding built up, so he can look into this as private research. Though, whether he actually picked up an official practicing medical degree in this process is...eh, some things you just gotta handwave if you want Ratio to actually practice medicine in a fic.
As for his papers in the field of biology... my personal headcanon here is that these came out of some collab project with the IPC (similar to the Penacony project). And there encountered remnants of The Propagation (because when you think bugs worthy of research in the HSR universe, that's the way to go), which then inspired these papers, maybe even as an outgrowth from the field of theology (Aeonic studies). Because otherwise, the topic seems a bit removed from all the other achievements he's got.
* A rough timeline for Ratio
So let's try to put the above into a workable timeline. First of all, some references as to examples of real life geniuses and how early people have gotten doctorate degrees. (The 15 year old Ph.D in medicine was a surprise to me, honestly.)
Now, we know from Ratio's character lore that he was discovered by a college professor while in high school. This implies he was already getting private tutoring by that professor at the university level. At that point, he was already making it to publication in math.
Going by modern day geniuses, I'd like to think that Ratio had already skipped grades to be in high school at this point, and that was how he caught the attention of Professor Rand. So, my headcanon would place Ratio in his early teens at this point (~11-13), which honestly isn't even all that big a deal by real life child genius standards.
Then he was transferred to the University of Veritas Prime. Depending on how much of his studies under Rand equated to transferable credits (or even an undergrad degree), he could likely go in as a postgrad. Then, I would expect him to gain his well known achievements in math, physics, and comp sci not too long afterwards, since those achievements are all on the theory side. So maybe mid-teens (14-15) to get his first degree.
Afterwards would be his post-doc period, because the process of becoming a professor, much less tenured one, *is* something that will take time to happen. Meanwhile, Ratio would likely proceed onto the engineering field, leading the R&D team to develop the EBBR Generator, and thus catching the attention of the IPC.
An actual engineer project will take longer to complete, because it's not just theory, it's also dependent on other people, materials, bureaucratic and logistical constraints. Even if we assume Ratio's part was done by just designing a prototype and confirming it works as theorized, it should still take some time.
At this point, he might still be in his late teens, maybe ~17-19 years old. He'd be surrounded by people praising his genius, and most likely also under the impression himself that he would become a member of the Genius Society. I think that it was with this motivation that he would be convinced to sign up with the IPC project for the anti-planetary weapon. Lore states this was a project that spanned several years, so probably up to ~22-23 year old range. Since I don't think he was the primary lead on it, he probably had other things going on during that time...
Most notably, I think Ratio would be delving deeper into philosophy and theology during this time, especially with each year that he still hasn't gotten the attention of Nous. We may be even able to squeeze the start of his foray into medicine in as well, either as part of another attempt to prove himself to Nous, or a catalyst for turning away from that path towards the Mundane. Also around this time frame, he would have started also teaching classes at the university, and perhaps found something of a calling in that position.
In other words, the time frame of ~19-22 in age would've been the period where Ratio underwent extensive soul searching and changes. It's the period where he "matured" and "grew up", so to speak, and had his world view and self-image challenged, and maybe overturned. Where he eventually decided to veer from the pure path of Erudition, and perhaps align with the Hunt.
After this change was complete, he'd have obtained another degree in either philosophy or theology (and honorary degree in the other), as well as gotten his tenure by the university, plus honorary degrees in physics, engineering, comp sci, medicine. At this point, he'd also be ready to join the Intelligentsia Guild. This would be likely in the ~23 age range.
He would still have collaborations with the IPC on his own right though. I'd like to think his first meeting with Aventurine happened after his joining the Guild. Because while he was working on the IPC weapons project, there doesn't seem to much reason for them to interact. So he would be maybe ~24-ish.
I'd also like to think their partnership has lasted for a good while in order for them to build up a camaraderie between them. But not too long, in order for them to present a believable adversarial relationship to Sunday. So he'd be around ~25-26-ish during the Penacony arc.
* A rough timeline for Aventurine
Purely based on the cutscene sequences, it seems like Aventurine was probably a preteen when his clan was massacred.
In between then and being captured and sold into slavery, I think there would be a period of time when he was wandering on his own. It's likely during this time frame that he encountered various benefactors on planet ??? -- which he later followed up on after he joined the IPC, only to find them dead.
The scenes of him being sold into slavery seems to have him as a teen, maybe mid to late teens. He also seems to be about the same age when facing Jade's trial, so I don't think he spent too much time as a slave. However, there had to be enough time in there for him to win some amount of trust from his owner, in order for him to orchestrate the Egyhazo scam. So I would place him around ~17-18-ish when recruited by Jade.
Afterwards, there was likely an extensive period where he worked under Jade and was tested for his abilities. He likely started out in the P30-ish rank and climbed the ladder up to his current rank. Eventually, he obtained the Aventurine cornerstone and became one of the stonehearts (maybe around ~20-21-ish, at rank P40-45 range). His current age, I would put him around ~22 or so.
This would give him an age gap of about ~3-4 years with Ratio. It also means that, by the above headcanon, when he scammed the Intelligentsia Guild (~4-5 years ago), Ratio hadn't joined it yet.
Perhaps after Ratio joined the Guild (or perhaps after becoming a part of the Mundanite Council), the IPC felt the need to renegotiate terms with Ratio to take into account his new position in the Guild. This caused the Strategic Investment Dept. to take this chance to try and sway Ratio to support their department, and sent the newly promoted to stoneheart Aventurine to reach out. Then the events of Final Victor LC happens, resulting in Aventurine successfully capturing Ratio's attention, and they become semi-official partners.
* How I see this relationship would go
I see a lot less romance (the typical tropey type) in it, ironically. Because I see these two as both very rational people.
And yes, that includes Aventurine - he plays on other people's emotions, and wears a mask more appropriate of Elation, but IMO under it all, he always has a clear clear plan and goal in mind, and doesn't get emotion get in the way of it. I think this is clear in the Penacony arc. Sunday inflicting Harmony on him basically pulls all of his past and present doubts into being to attack him, but he takes their shots and, no matter how it may have affected him emotionally (because it did, for him to show that slight waver in his conversation with Acheron), but never let them get in the way of the most critical part his plan.
So yeah, I see these two guys as rational people who will tend toward making rational plans and decisions, not hasty emotional knee-jerk responses. So their relationship, even though motivated by emotion, will actually go through a lot of rational consideration of how such a relationship would work, before both sides will actually commit to being together.
Ironically, I don't think time and scheduling would be the biggest issue that would come up. On Dr. Ratio's side, his normal work is likely something on a regular schedule. He'd have some occasional need to travel for conferences, negotiations, or consultations, but that's likely to be very short term.
As for Aventurine, as mentioned above, he's upper management, not a 007 worker; he's the guy that sets deadlines, not the one stressing to meet them. Yes, he will have a lot of jobs where he needs to travel, but I don't see that as constant nor something that involves a long time away. As a reminder, the entire main Penacony story arc took place in 48 hours, and the aftermath maybe a few days at most.
As well, I don't see him as a constantly self-destructive person who gambles his life at the drop of a hat and gets injured on every mission. That's...no. His backstory of clawing his way out of slavery and into power very clearly shows that he's got a good sense of self-preservation and a will to survive. He may have survivor's guilt with the death of his people, but that's not the same thing as being suicidal.
And no, we can't take proof of his slight wavering while faced with the black hole of Nihility to say he's normally nihilistic. I mean. He was facing the black hole of Nihility at the time! The very fact that he was able to survive it and live means he does want to live. You can't get clearer than that.
So, these typical tropes I often see in fics aside... the elephant that I see in the room, which most writers never address, is actually the IPC. Aventurine's entry into the IPC was based on a deal he made with Jade, and we know that Jade is the mistress of faustian bargains. So the question is, what kind of price did he sign off? While being a company man has made him rich and successful to the outside, what does he still owe the company within? How "free" is he to have a relationship, and potentially, marriage?
From Dr. Ratio's side, he should already have a history of collaborative work with the IPC, and should be well aware of the good, the bad, the potential, etc in the IPC. I am also sure there is a good amount of push pull with what kind of research the IPC wants from him vs what he would prefer to research with IPC resources. A relationship with Aventurine would undoubtedly a very big change in his relationship with the IPC, and that's something I would think he'd need to carefully work out beforehand, rather than after conflicts of interest start to come up.
So, I can actually see these two dorks starting their relationship with a comprehensive contract all prettily dressing up their desire to start a relationship in cold hard legalese. XD If they ever consider getting married, it will probably involve an even longer pre-marital contract, which covers all the loopholes they've undoubtedly found and exploited in the course of their previous relationship contract. XDXD
As for whether they'd be open about it... I am actually leaning toward the no side. Because they aren't teen girls prone to unreasonable bouts of jealousy and insecurity. -_-
Backing up a little, I see their relationship getting to the point of romance as a pretty slow one. From Ratio's side, the attraction very obviously started from intellectual stimulation (the Final Victor lightcone incident), the challenge of trying to "solve" an apparently "chaotic" personality, and the recognition of Aventurine's ability even if it's a different kind than the academic type. From Aventurine side, I feel that it started with having a reliable partner in more than one operations he was on, leading to Ratio being perhaps the first person after his family that he could put "trust" into (because while they were obviously faking an antagonistic relationship on Penacony for Sunday's spies, the very act of a pre-planned double cross meant that Aventurine did trust Ratio to follow his cues and complete the critical part of his plan).
Because of how it developed, I think they would prefer to stay with that status quo unless there is a good reason to change it, for convenience in operations like Penacony, or negotiations in general. I see these two preferring to mislead their targets so that at least one party would more easily get into the target's confidence. Similarly, in everyday life, Ratio wouldn't need to deal with people trying curry favor with the IPC through his relationship with Aventurine. And Aventurine likely doesn't want the company to try and influence Ratio's projects through him. As long as there's no obvious benefit in coming out, I don't see them choosing to be out.
Finally, as to who tops... I can see it either way, actually. Normally, by height and age, it would be normal to assume that Ratio tops. But in game, Aventurine is the more proactive personality which it comes to interacting with people, whereas Ratio tends to be a bit more reactive. *shrug* Or y'know, it doesn't all need to be penetration... let's see some more scifi (toys) in this relationship! (I'll shut up now. =P)
There's more fics in this ship, so naturally there's also a larger number of badfic along with the ok-fic and good-fic. It still means I have to slog through a lot of the badfic, even after automatically filtering the ones that are recognizably bad from the title/summary/tags before even clicking in (I mean, WTF does ice skater AU make any sort of sense? Or there's the genderflip/trans AUs..)
Still, I still get to actually read a lot of badfic before closing them out. Or even decent fic that is ok in some parts while still driving me nuts in others. So while this is on my mind, I might as well also get it off my chest...
Pet Peeves in Fanfic
1. Copy pasta of toxic relationships from bad romance novels
This is more egregious in CN fandom. Most commonly, the top character gets turned into a stereotype in toxic masculinity (or worse), and the bottom character gets turned into a weepy damsel in distress.
Or as I also see it in bad BG (or even BL) romance novels: Is the internalized misogyny so bad that this readership can't tell romance from abuse? Or worse, actually enjoy reading and fantasizing about toxic relationships?
Ratio in some ways has it better when he's the top character. He "only" gets to be cast as an insensitive and caustic jerk, prone to jealous fits and being forcible in sex. Yes, completely OOC, but also very obviously being replaced by the very common male lead stereotype in many CN novels. And of course, to make up the other half of this pairing, Aventurine gets turned into an emotionally weak/needy/insecure mess...totally ignoring his actual background of relying on his own wits and mental fortitude to claw his way out of slavery to get to the top of the social ladder.
When Aventurine is top...oh boy. I can't count the number of fics I've read which turn him into a crazy psycho and/or outright rapist. Like, the worst of romance novels where non-consensual sex is considered a perfectly "reasonable" lead up into the "romance" between the male and female lead... yeah, that gets shoved onto this pairing more often than you'd think. And of course, in order to become the victim of this setup, Ratio is pretty much stripped of his intelligence/ability/background.
2. The love-addled perfect BF fantasy
This is sorta a 1.5 in that it's also about the horrid tropy depiction of characters, usually the "top" character in the pairing. In this case, it's Aventurine, the more popular character, that typically suffers from this, and becomes a love-addled "恋爱脑".
Symptoms are basically becoming an idiot who's only thoughts revolve around his partner, engaging in ostentations displays of affection (that are really more socially embarrassing than romantic if it happened in real life), and having a constantly-on libido.
In these kind of stories, the second hand embarrassment alone will give me the goosebumps. The blatant OOC is...yeah, doesn't really need further pointing out, does it?
3. Completely forgetting this is a sci-fi/fantasy setting
This most often happens in action sequences, where some random mooks from primitive planet X are made into actual threats to our heroes by dint of just waving a gun around. Or setting up some hurt/comfort fics by making someone freaking die or get critically injured from a freaking car accident. Or, our heroes get their guns/personal effects taken from them (due to security policies or at gunpoint or some other method) and suddenly become helpless.
Maybe sometimes, some writers will remember that Aventurine has shields. But rarely do they figure into the fact that he actually wields 1/10 of the power of an Emanator of Preservation. People also forget that in canon, the only threat that was posed to Aventurine was Sunday and Acheron. Sunday was a representative of Harmony (actually Order) at the center of their power. Acheron is an Emanator, nuff said.
For Ratio, writers might sometimes remember he can throw ballistic chalk. But much more rarely do people remember that he was shown to have a phased flame, aka. personal teleporter. Or that he can summon statues, pillars, a freaking chess set, etc. - as a personal ability to summon objects with Imaginary power. (For that matter, Aventurine's shields are also based on imaginary power, and he can obviously extend/retract it as needed.)
Generally, IMO they also ought to have a freaking personal inventory to carry stuff, like Ratio's chess set and his headgear. Similar to how the members of the Astral Express are often seen materializing weapons out of nowhere. I would say personal inventories would be something that's pretty common.
4. Taking domesticity too far
This usually comes across with at least one person of the pairing, usually the top character, automatically becoming a great/experienced chef and showing off cooking skill to his partner. It's an obvious general romance trope that just doesn't really fit with these characters.
And clean. This skill is usually attributed to Ratio as a germaphobe. Even though, his actual dialogue was that he has figurative "洁癖" where it comes to idiots, not *literal* germaphobia. But fine.
Dr. Ratio from all cues comes from a privileged social status. He most likely skipped grades to get to high school, and was taking university classes from a professor that then recommended him to Veritas Prime. Why would a teen be expected to learn to cook and clean? At university, he very obviously spent a lot of time and focus achieving the 8 degrees and various achievements that he has. Why would he need to spend time on learning to cook...when there is a thing called the synthesizer in-universe which can make foods preprogrammed into it? Or clean, when even modern day, there's a thing called roombas. For a guy with degrees in engineering and comp sci, even? Hello?
As for Aventurine, he grew up on a poor planet and then became a slave who was primarily used for blood sports. I can buy him knowing basic forage for the planet he came from, but not more than that. Then after becoming part of the IPC, money wouldn't have been an issue anymore. Why would he spend time that's better spent climbing the corporate ladder to cook and clean, when he has so many other options that money can buy? Dining out, takeout, synthesizer with pre-programmed meals... Like, I can understand he might not want to have actual hired help in his personal space doing the cleaning due to trust issues. But again, roombas. You can't tell me this settings doesn't have anything better.
5. Dr Ratio's talks like a thesaurus / talks with insults
The former I blame on writers not knowing how to write smart people and mistake using big words for showing off smarts.
The latter I blame more on the English localization and VA. In all 3 other languages, Dr. Ratio's VA talks like a normal person. In the EN version, the VA was told to over-act, resulting in sounding much more pompous / insulting voice. Plus, some of his lines are badly translated; most notably his join team with Aventurine dialog is merely advisory sounding in CN, but becomes an outright accusation in EN.
Also, just learned about this tidbit regarding the voice direction of JP and KR VAs for Ratio. I assume the CN VA also got similar direction, which points toward a calm and logical characterization. Entirely different from the overblown pompousness of the EN voice direction. As in the thread, I wonder if this difference in voice direction is coming from different attitudes towards teachers and geniuses in eastern vs western culture.
6. Dr. Ratio's socio-economic status
First, on Dr. Ratio's side. Although we don't get any outright info on his family economic background, we do know he grew up in an environment where he did not have any trouble getting access to education above his normal age level. Thus it's safe to say that he doesn't come from a "poor" household. However, there's nothing to indicate that he's be from a "rich" household either.
As for the living standard of his home planet, it's hard to gauge. Professor Rand was able to recommend him to the University of Veritas Prime, so the professor must have had friends and peers there. On the other hand, he also says that local schools are lacking in advanced science programs. Now, that could be taken at face value, or he could mean that there is local programs, just not suited to someone of Ratio's intelligence. I'd lean more towards the latter, since otherwise why would he be there.
From in story depictions of Dr. Ratio, he isn't an ivory tower kind of scholar either. So given his achievements, especially in physics/engineering/medicine, it's likely that he has plenty of patents under his name, and a generous amount of income coming from that alone.
On the other hand, given his philosophy that education should be freely available to all, it's likely that in areas that benefit the masses (like medicine), he likely wouldn't be trying to make too much off those patents.
On the third tentacle, given that he's had a long collab history with the IPC, including the aid of designing weapons (which doesn't show up in his list of accomplishments, which implies that he might not be the primary lead on that project)... I think it's safe to say that he *knows* what kind of research, or how to present his research, would easily get outside funding if need be.
That is to say, when writers depict him as stressed out and having trouble securing funding for personal projects (and need Aventurine to come in and save the day), it just breaks my SOD.
Of course, if it's Aventurine who's taking the initiative at throwing money at his boyfriend because he has so much of it that even the equivalent of pocket money is a huge sum, then I'm fine with it.
7. Aventurine's socio-economic status
Rarely have I seen people get this right, especially on Aventurine's side due to being overshadowed by his tragic past history. But the thing is, that is *history*. It's not the present.
At present, Aventurine is P45, which makes him the upper management of IPC. He's a boss, and not just the kind you fight. He's the 霸道总裁 role, but no one actually writes this (or if they do, it's more psycho and less CEO). He's *not* the poor overworked 007 worker stressing out about filing reports by a deadline, but people tend to write him in this role instead because they've got woobie-googles on and that's the role the writer emphasizes with.
We explicitly had Topaz and Aventurine offer a project manager job role to the Trailblazer in game, and then Topaz sassing Aventurine about how he overworks his lackeys. From the dialogue, my impression is that the main difference between these two are quality vs quantity. That is, Aventurine doesn't work as many projects as Topaz does, but he ends up working the harder projects, and thus suffers a slightly lower success rate. (Not to mention, that he even has a failure rate at all is good proof that he doesn't gamble his life at the drop of a hat, unlike how a lot of h/c fics write him. Penacony is just a special case.)
Also, I gotta say, the way that many writers keep bringing up his slave background as a attack vector during negotiations or when threatened by villains or whatever... feels like a clear case of not having worked in society (接受社会毒打). When you are successful enough, people will tend to automatically forget about the "failures" in your history. In business, success is all that needs to speak for itself. People should be flocking around him to brownose like mad, not throwing insults where he can overhear and potentially break their careers. Sure, there would be people jealous of his success, but any such sentiments should be kept in the privacy of their own minds, and not voice anywhere that could potentially get back to him. (Like, this is why standard job search tip is to make sure all of your social media history should be scrubbed clean of potential controversial topics!)
At the same time, there's some writers who go overboard the other direction, such as having Aventurine owning multiple mansions or something like that. It's not that he can't afford it, but we do have a glimpse of what his bedroom looks like from the concert clip where it showed him rooming with 3 cat cakes. And his bedroom looks to be pretty normally decorated that it wouldn't be out of question to be a IPC single dorm or condo. It makes sense if you see his gaudy clothing as something aimed for psychological warfare, and not necessarily reflecting other aspects of his life. A more perfunctory private aesthetic where it wouldn't reflect on him to outside eyes would also make sense given his background.
Some headcannon:
* Dr. Ratio's 8 doctorate degrees
There are some things I don't like about the canon as well. For instance, it's guilty of having writers who obviously never got an actual bachelor's degree from an university doing the writing. Because the 8 doctoral degrees thing is *so* unnecessary.
I mean, look at Newton, he only had a degree in math, but that doesn't stop him from being a pioneer in fields like astronomy, economics, physics, etc. Look at the famous founders of various tech companies in Silicon Valley - like, Bill Gates didn't need a degree from Harvard to found Microsoft.
Getting an academic degree in a subject is NOT the same as being a famous pioneer in it, nor is it an prerequisite to getting outstanding achievements from that field! For that matter, having more degrees does not necessarily make you look smarter; it just makes you look like...someone who's boxed himself into the bureaucratic system. Actual achievements without a degree are a much more visceral depiction of "genius", see every "child genius" story trope out there.
This is why my personal headcanon is that most of those 8 degrees are actually honorary ones foisted on Dr. Ratio by his university. Because they use him as PR in attracting students, funding, etc. And/or to increase leverage in their representation in the Intelligentsia Guild. And/or to boost their rep when dealing with the IPC. So forth.
IMO the only degree he needs to have is the math one, because that's the foundation of all sciences. The rest of it, mathematics will naturally lead into studies in physics and research in comp sci (as someone who came out of EECS, the theory side of this field is pretty much all math). Considering that his known accomplishments in these fields are papers on the theory side of things, it's not unlikely that it was his new proofs in math which naturally led to the follow up theories in physics, and utilization in computation.
Then from physics + comp sci, his achievements in these two fields could naturally lead into implementations on the engineering side. Hence, leading the R&D team on revolutionary energy generation. This is probably at the point where he came up on the radar of the IPC as a distinct person of interest separate from his University.
Meanwhile, given the cosmology setup of the Star Rail universe, high level theoretical physics will automatically lead into metaphysical studies of the Aeons, and thus lead into theology and philosophy. I could see Dr. Ratio also getting a degree in Theology as the only other degree he might bother to actively pursue. This I would put during the time frame when he might still be hoping for the gaze of Nous. And the process of gaining this degree may also be his process of working through his personal philosophy vs the Path of Erudition, and eventually coming to terms with not entering the Genius Society. And possibly also, choosing to co-stride the Path of the Hunt. (See Penman Equation)
IMO, the point at which he gave up on pure Erudition and the Genius Society is likely also when he joined the Intelligentsia Guild. That said, this would also be around the time of the test firing of the anti-planetary weapon that Ratio worked on in collab with the IPC (as per his character lore). So it's likely that Ratio's relationship with the IPC started as an independent one before his joining the Guild, and is separate from the Guild's own relationship with the IPC. That he became a member of the central Mundanite Council so quickly in the Guild though, could as much be due to his own achievements as due to his own standing with the IPC, which has a lot of strings on the Guild.
As for his remaining "degrees" in biology and medicine, I'm less sure about how to fit in. Especially since an actual practicing medical degree will require clinical rotations and residencies and stuff which takes time and can't be handwaved away with "genius" (except in fiction, unfortunately).
Going back to his list of achievements though, I am inclined to go the route of: someone Ratio knows personally, maybe a friend or family member was afflicted by "lithogenesis", which became the catalyst for him to look into this disease and dip in the biological sciences. Then of course, self study becomes expertise, and then some "eureka" moments resulting in the development of a cure. It's also my headcanon that at this point, Ratio already had his own private lab and sufficient private funding built up, so he can look into this as private research. Though, whether he actually picked up an official practicing medical degree in this process is...eh, some things you just gotta handwave if you want Ratio to actually practice medicine in a fic.
As for his papers in the field of biology... my personal headcanon here is that these came out of some collab project with the IPC (similar to the Penacony project). And there encountered remnants of The Propagation (because when you think bugs worthy of research in the HSR universe, that's the way to go), which then inspired these papers, maybe even as an outgrowth from the field of theology (Aeonic studies). Because otherwise, the topic seems a bit removed from all the other achievements he's got.
* A rough timeline for Ratio
So let's try to put the above into a workable timeline. First of all, some references as to examples of real life geniuses and how early people have gotten doctorate degrees. (The 15 year old Ph.D in medicine was a surprise to me, honestly.)
Now, we know from Ratio's character lore that he was discovered by a college professor while in high school. This implies he was already getting private tutoring by that professor at the university level. At that point, he was already making it to publication in math.
Going by modern day geniuses, I'd like to think that Ratio had already skipped grades to be in high school at this point, and that was how he caught the attention of Professor Rand. So, my headcanon would place Ratio in his early teens at this point (~11-13), which honestly isn't even all that big a deal by real life child genius standards.
Then he was transferred to the University of Veritas Prime. Depending on how much of his studies under Rand equated to transferable credits (or even an undergrad degree), he could likely go in as a postgrad. Then, I would expect him to gain his well known achievements in math, physics, and comp sci not too long afterwards, since those achievements are all on the theory side. So maybe mid-teens (14-15) to get his first degree.
Afterwards would be his post-doc period, because the process of becoming a professor, much less tenured one, *is* something that will take time to happen. Meanwhile, Ratio would likely proceed onto the engineering field, leading the R&D team to develop the EBBR Generator, and thus catching the attention of the IPC.
An actual engineer project will take longer to complete, because it's not just theory, it's also dependent on other people, materials, bureaucratic and logistical constraints. Even if we assume Ratio's part was done by just designing a prototype and confirming it works as theorized, it should still take some time.
At this point, he might still be in his late teens, maybe ~17-19 years old. He'd be surrounded by people praising his genius, and most likely also under the impression himself that he would become a member of the Genius Society. I think that it was with this motivation that he would be convinced to sign up with the IPC project for the anti-planetary weapon. Lore states this was a project that spanned several years, so probably up to ~22-23 year old range. Since I don't think he was the primary lead on it, he probably had other things going on during that time...
Most notably, I think Ratio would be delving deeper into philosophy and theology during this time, especially with each year that he still hasn't gotten the attention of Nous. We may be even able to squeeze the start of his foray into medicine in as well, either as part of another attempt to prove himself to Nous, or a catalyst for turning away from that path towards the Mundane. Also around this time frame, he would have started also teaching classes at the university, and perhaps found something of a calling in that position.
In other words, the time frame of ~19-22 in age would've been the period where Ratio underwent extensive soul searching and changes. It's the period where he "matured" and "grew up", so to speak, and had his world view and self-image challenged, and maybe overturned. Where he eventually decided to veer from the pure path of Erudition, and perhaps align with the Hunt.
After this change was complete, he'd have obtained another degree in either philosophy or theology (and honorary degree in the other), as well as gotten his tenure by the university, plus honorary degrees in physics, engineering, comp sci, medicine. At this point, he'd also be ready to join the Intelligentsia Guild. This would be likely in the ~23 age range.
He would still have collaborations with the IPC on his own right though. I'd like to think his first meeting with Aventurine happened after his joining the Guild. Because while he was working on the IPC weapons project, there doesn't seem to much reason for them to interact. So he would be maybe ~24-ish.
I'd also like to think their partnership has lasted for a good while in order for them to build up a camaraderie between them. But not too long, in order for them to present a believable adversarial relationship to Sunday. So he'd be around ~25-26-ish during the Penacony arc.
* A rough timeline for Aventurine
Purely based on the cutscene sequences, it seems like Aventurine was probably a preteen when his clan was massacred.
In between then and being captured and sold into slavery, I think there would be a period of time when he was wandering on his own. It's likely during this time frame that he encountered various benefactors on planet ??? -- which he later followed up on after he joined the IPC, only to find them dead.
The scenes of him being sold into slavery seems to have him as a teen, maybe mid to late teens. He also seems to be about the same age when facing Jade's trial, so I don't think he spent too much time as a slave. However, there had to be enough time in there for him to win some amount of trust from his owner, in order for him to orchestrate the Egyhazo scam. So I would place him around ~17-18-ish when recruited by Jade.
Afterwards, there was likely an extensive period where he worked under Jade and was tested for his abilities. He likely started out in the P30-ish rank and climbed the ladder up to his current rank. Eventually, he obtained the Aventurine cornerstone and became one of the stonehearts (maybe around ~20-21-ish, at rank P40-45 range). His current age, I would put him around ~22 or so.
This would give him an age gap of about ~3-4 years with Ratio. It also means that, by the above headcanon, when he scammed the Intelligentsia Guild (~4-5 years ago), Ratio hadn't joined it yet.
Perhaps after Ratio joined the Guild (or perhaps after becoming a part of the Mundanite Council), the IPC felt the need to renegotiate terms with Ratio to take into account his new position in the Guild. This caused the Strategic Investment Dept. to take this chance to try and sway Ratio to support their department, and sent the newly promoted to stoneheart Aventurine to reach out. Then the events of Final Victor LC happens, resulting in Aventurine successfully capturing Ratio's attention, and they become semi-official partners.
* How I see this relationship would go
I see a lot less romance (the typical tropey type) in it, ironically. Because I see these two as both very rational people.
And yes, that includes Aventurine - he plays on other people's emotions, and wears a mask more appropriate of Elation, but IMO under it all, he always has a clear clear plan and goal in mind, and doesn't get emotion get in the way of it. I think this is clear in the Penacony arc. Sunday inflicting Harmony on him basically pulls all of his past and present doubts into being to attack him, but he takes their shots and, no matter how it may have affected him emotionally (because it did, for him to show that slight waver in his conversation with Acheron), but never let them get in the way of the most critical part his plan.
So yeah, I see these two guys as rational people who will tend toward making rational plans and decisions, not hasty emotional knee-jerk responses. So their relationship, even though motivated by emotion, will actually go through a lot of rational consideration of how such a relationship would work, before both sides will actually commit to being together.
Ironically, I don't think time and scheduling would be the biggest issue that would come up. On Dr. Ratio's side, his normal work is likely something on a regular schedule. He'd have some occasional need to travel for conferences, negotiations, or consultations, but that's likely to be very short term.
As for Aventurine, as mentioned above, he's upper management, not a 007 worker; he's the guy that sets deadlines, not the one stressing to meet them. Yes, he will have a lot of jobs where he needs to travel, but I don't see that as constant nor something that involves a long time away. As a reminder, the entire main Penacony story arc took place in 48 hours, and the aftermath maybe a few days at most.
As well, I don't see him as a constantly self-destructive person who gambles his life at the drop of a hat and gets injured on every mission. That's...no. His backstory of clawing his way out of slavery and into power very clearly shows that he's got a good sense of self-preservation and a will to survive. He may have survivor's guilt with the death of his people, but that's not the same thing as being suicidal.
And no, we can't take proof of his slight wavering while faced with the black hole of Nihility to say he's normally nihilistic. I mean. He was facing the black hole of Nihility at the time! The very fact that he was able to survive it and live means he does want to live. You can't get clearer than that.
So, these typical tropes I often see in fics aside... the elephant that I see in the room, which most writers never address, is actually the IPC. Aventurine's entry into the IPC was based on a deal he made with Jade, and we know that Jade is the mistress of faustian bargains. So the question is, what kind of price did he sign off? While being a company man has made him rich and successful to the outside, what does he still owe the company within? How "free" is he to have a relationship, and potentially, marriage?
From Dr. Ratio's side, he should already have a history of collaborative work with the IPC, and should be well aware of the good, the bad, the potential, etc in the IPC. I am also sure there is a good amount of push pull with what kind of research the IPC wants from him vs what he would prefer to research with IPC resources. A relationship with Aventurine would undoubtedly a very big change in his relationship with the IPC, and that's something I would think he'd need to carefully work out beforehand, rather than after conflicts of interest start to come up.
So, I can actually see these two dorks starting their relationship with a comprehensive contract all prettily dressing up their desire to start a relationship in cold hard legalese. XD If they ever consider getting married, it will probably involve an even longer pre-marital contract, which covers all the loopholes they've undoubtedly found and exploited in the course of their previous relationship contract. XDXD
As for whether they'd be open about it... I am actually leaning toward the no side. Because they aren't teen girls prone to unreasonable bouts of jealousy and insecurity. -_-
Backing up a little, I see their relationship getting to the point of romance as a pretty slow one. From Ratio's side, the attraction very obviously started from intellectual stimulation (the Final Victor lightcone incident), the challenge of trying to "solve" an apparently "chaotic" personality, and the recognition of Aventurine's ability even if it's a different kind than the academic type. From Aventurine side, I feel that it started with having a reliable partner in more than one operations he was on, leading to Ratio being perhaps the first person after his family that he could put "trust" into (because while they were obviously faking an antagonistic relationship on Penacony for Sunday's spies, the very act of a pre-planned double cross meant that Aventurine did trust Ratio to follow his cues and complete the critical part of his plan).
Because of how it developed, I think they would prefer to stay with that status quo unless there is a good reason to change it, for convenience in operations like Penacony, or negotiations in general. I see these two preferring to mislead their targets so that at least one party would more easily get into the target's confidence. Similarly, in everyday life, Ratio wouldn't need to deal with people trying curry favor with the IPC through his relationship with Aventurine. And Aventurine likely doesn't want the company to try and influence Ratio's projects through him. As long as there's no obvious benefit in coming out, I don't see them choosing to be out.
Finally, as to who tops... I can see it either way, actually. Normally, by height and age, it would be normal to assume that Ratio tops. But in game, Aventurine is the more proactive personality which it comes to interacting with people, whereas Ratio tends to be a bit more reactive. *shrug* Or y'know, it doesn't all need to be penetration... let's see some more scifi (toys) in this relationship! (I'll shut up now. =P)
(no subject)
Date: 2024-09-20 01:21 am (UTC)Ballistic just refers to the projectile property, not explosiveness or deadliness... e.g. contrast ballistic missiles to cruise missiles, deadliness is the "missile" part of the name, not "ballistic" part.
But ignoring that, game mechanics != narrative mechanics. If the HSR story is genuinely saying an academic throwing chalk can cause lethal damage, like as part of the narrative, then I'm with the fan writers on ignoring it. Having an academic being an action hero is a big no for me (hence my hate for the Indian Jones franchise). Academics can be physically fit (most actually are), but most are not going to philosophically agree to carrying weapons, even less so using said weapons. Like maaaaybe in a war when there's no choice, but only under very extenuating circumstances. Again, educators, like doctors, need to have the highest bar when it comes to ethics because they are tasked with shaping the ethical framework of the next generation.
(Also, from what you're describing, it sounds like despite paying lipservice to education, the story has written Ratio as a researcher/inventor first with educator a very, very distant second. This makes me sad, this Ratio is far less likable than his PV suggests.)
I would say this is a case of suspension of disbelief is needed. Due to the story being an action first type of story, inventory is deemed boring logistics and thus get handwaved away, hence personal hyperspace excuse (much like infinite bag of holding in medieval fantasy RPGs), but if the fic's purpose is to increase the grittiness (aka focus on the logistics rather than the action) then it makes sense to ignore that part of canon. Personally I'm not a fan of personal hyperspace/bag of holding trope as a way to circumvent the logistics, as those types of stories tend to downplay the importance of planning ahead. And with characters like Aventurine and Ratio, their biggest strengths are planning ahead and where the meat of their interactions would be happening.
More things hurting Dr. Ratio's standing with me. He sounds more like an R&D project leader than educator... Like that's fine. But sounds like his in-game backstory is nothing like what his PV suggested...
As someone who had to deal with math people in biological research... FUCK THAT. They know absolutely shit and need to STFU and sit down and listen to the actual experts. Ahem. Sorry pet peeve...
You know more about these characters, so I'll just chime in with my initial response, which is that it feels like the main point of contention between the two is that Ratio prefers plans that control all the variables while Aventurine leans towards playing the odds. Like Ratio would rather plant their own spy while Aventurine would try to trick/bribe an enemy mook into coughing up the the necessary information. Both plans work, their opposing views reflect the trade off between certainty vs expediency.
Maybe in a comedic story. But dear God not in a more serious story. I don't think they're such dorks that they'd actually think contracts work for a relationship...
Like I'd think given their semi coworker status, butting heads over operational logistics is how I see these guys growing to know each other and from that developing a mutually respectful relationship. The type that's like "only I can insult him". But also they don't seem like the type to care to make their personal relationship a public gossip topic so they'd keep it on the down low purely because they'd rather not share their love lives with the world at large. It has nothing to do with being in the closet.
Finally, yeah, I can see either guy topping. They'd probably switch.
(no subject)
Date: 2024-09-20 03:24 am (UTC)The problem is that they still need to live in the HSR setting, where Pathstriders are a thing, and it comes with powers. Non-pathstriders are often at the mercy of whatever monster in the void that comes knocking, and can just hope their location got defenses or they got defenders or whatever. People who go out to actively plumb the mysteries of the universe need to be able to defend themselves.
That's why there's a faction literally called the "Armed Archaeologists"... because digging up ancient stuff is very often a dangerous affair. It's why even Herta's remote puppet dolls have the combat ability of a 4 star and wields a freaking giant ice hammer.
Ratio's Imaginary-based powers are as much a part of him as his mastery of the phased flame. It's why he can confidently stand by and be our MC's backup when we went into battle against a freaking cloned Emanator of Propagation. It's why he doesn't fear retribution when he foiled the plans of Duke Inferno on his own (it's not like he could predict ahead of time that Acheron would later kill the dude).
Taking away all of that for the sake of making him more real life realistic misses the entire point of this being a HSR fandom CP. For the same reason, I don't read AUs where the HSR elements are removed from the fics. (Like those ice skater AUs. Or mob AUs... Or even modern earth AUs in general, for that matter.)
> Also, from what you're describing, it sounds like despite paying lipservice to education, the story has written Ratio as a researcher/inventor first with educator a very, very distant second.
If you are talking about his in game roles, then he hasn't appeared on screen in a university setting or anything. But his intention on Herta's Space Station was to teach the researchers and our MC to resolve the problems that Duke Inferno was trying to instigate, while preventing anyone from actually dying in the process.
If you are talking about his backstory, we do get to hear a lot more about his research/invention achievements, because that's what stands out when someone describes his biography.
BTW, added a section above with my headcanon of Ratio's personal timeline. I think a lot of his R&D would take place or at least start in his early post-doc years, before he became a professor. And I think there would need to be a personal growth progression for him, from being someone who aimed at the prestige of getting into the Genius Society, to someone that cared about teaching the masses.
> the main point of contention between the two is that Ratio prefers plans that control all the variables while Aventurine leans towards playing the odds
Eh...The problem with basing their interaction on the Penacony arc is that the whole thing was an act they were carrying out. The plan was from the beginning for Ratio to misdirect Sunday and pretend to betray Aventurine. Most of their conversations were held either with double meaning or some kind of code, because Aventurine was under watch by Sunday most of the time and he knew it.
The most we can say is that either they had worked out this plan before arriving on Penacony. Or that Aventurine was able to communicate the plan (and any changes) to Ratio without having to spell things out, just based on their understanding of each other (默契).
After the whole plot was over, we don't actually see them interact with each other afterwards... aside from one splash art of the afterparty, where they were hanging out in the pool together.
I prefer to draw inspiration from the Aventurine intro interview that featured Ratio, where he does talk about Aventurine being a chaotic ball of randomness... but in an entirely *fond* way. Aventurine's maverick tendencies are not necessarily a point of contention between them, but rather, part of the uniqueness that attracts Ratio to him.
Also, I don't think Dr. Ratio has a controlling personality either. From his teaching methods towards our MC and the HSS researchers, he has a lot of patience for letting "idiots" flail around and figure things out on their own. He can't predict whether they'd actually solve the problem on their own or not, just give them space and the occasional hint to try. His self appointed role is to stand back and catch them from the worse case scenario, should they fail.
IMO, Ratio prefers to observe and react to events, rather than be completely proactive. IMO if he was the one planning a mission or whatnot, I would expect him to only have a loose idea of how to start things off, and then a whole bunch of potential contingency plans based on what happens afterwards.
Both of them would expect to "winging" it when the unexpected happens, though I expect Aventurine to come up more riskier contingencies aimed at accomplishing both the end goal as well as protecting the initial investment, so to speak. Whereas Ratio would play it safer, aiming to protect the investment or resetting the board.
> Maybe in a comedic story.
Of course. It would be an interesting way to "confess". Better than typical flowers and dating trope anyway. Also, I want to see the face of people who get to proof read the initial drafts (and it will likely be our MC who gets dragged into that role).
Or Aventurine "accidentally" leaking it to the IPC Tech Department as a bid to sway support to their Department against the Marketing Dept. (There's also gotta be a way to work Boothill and his funny talk into this kind of setup, I just can't think of how...)
(no subject)
Date: 2024-09-20 04:43 am (UTC)I mean this is where the "this CP is probably not for me" might kick in. Like on the surface I find Aventurine/Ratio dynamic interesting, but as I get to know more it's a bit...ugh. Mostly that Ratio comes off as less of an academic and more of an action hero (why is he a DPS unit?!). Like knowledge is power sure, but gah, there's usually another medium that transforms knowledge into power. As funny as the image of whacking mooks to death with books/chalk/chessboard is, it doesn't really work without the visual gag.
Yup, Indiana Jones influence confirmed. But like I've said, I personally hate that trope, so will probably choose to ignore it.
Eeeeh, I think it's not missing the point so much as people get different things out of the CP. Clearly for you, Ratio being a competent fighter/adventurer is important. For others, it's the personality, not the powers.
As an example, for me, Jing Yuan's personality and his political position are of far more interest than him being able to summon a giant golden bashy-dude or his command over lightning. Remove all the cosmic powers and paths and Jing Yuan is still an interesting character. In fact, the least interesting aspect to me is HSR's cosmology. The gods, paths, emanators, etc. are the things getting in the way of a good story. Part of the reason Xianzhou story captivates me is precisely because HSR cosmology takes a backseat and actual social dynamics and politics becomes the center of the story.
Even in hard sci-fi, the hardness is meant to serve as a limit on the deus ex machina that the author can pull. But the science itself isn't driving the story, it's the people. (If science is the actual driving force then I may as well go read some well written non-fiction.) If personality of the characters are completely removed from the reality of the readership (aka how we experience human relationships, both personal and social) then the fiction kind of fails the primary purpose of fiction: reflecting the truth of humanity back at the reader.
It's very possible that we're approaching this from two different perspectives. You want an interesting world where it feels like the the HSR lore is being fleshed out/preserved. I want an interesting story where characters are interacting in a way that expands their personhood beyond just the vibes.
People can disagree and find that disagreement precisely what makes the other person interesting. Like, that's a common thing in academia. Yelling at each other because you're approaching the problem from different perspectives, but ultimately respecting and even appreciating the opposing view point.
Ratio can fundamentally disagree with Aventurine's approach and still appreciate, respect, and even be fond of that different approach. I cannot think of a single decent academic who doesn't think the most valuable feedback is the one that disagrees (with good reason of course). If Ratio cares about the truth, he'd absolutely find people like Aventurine, who constantly challenges his perspectives, to be the most valuable. And it's not hard to see how that high esteem grows into fondness.
Now maybe that's not how it's written in HSR, but based on the interview you were talking about, that's the vibe I was getting.
Well, you know these guys better than I do.
Or these guys wouldn't need to confess. They strike me as the type who will simply grow closer over time and realize after the fact they've started dating and very naturally accept they've become a "couple". Like neither Aventurine nor Dr. Ratio seem to be particularly concerned with the label of being "a couple". They know they're together and exclusive, they know the other person also knows this, what more is there really left to say?
(no subject)
Date: 2024-09-20 04:52 am (UTC)Yeah, that sounds right. The metaphysics of the HSR universe is important to me to enjoy stories in this fandom, because that's what I'm here for. I mean, if it's just well written romance, I could get much better reading sources from jjwtx or whatnot.
> Now maybe that's not how it's written in HSR, but based on the interview you were talking about, that's the vibe I was getting.
Unfortunately we don't get enough of their honest (non-acting) interactions in HSR story as yet. So it could be how you describe it.
> They know they're together and exclusive, they know the other person also knows this, what more is there really left to say?
Well, someone has to broach the topic by the first time they have sex together, because that's unlikely to happen subconsciously without both parties actually actively agreeing to it.
(no subject)
Date: 2024-09-20 08:18 am (UTC)Um, pretty sure you're not going to get the same characters on jjwtx... Like...I really don't find the metaphysics of HSR to be critical to the characterizations of the PCs. At least based on the Xianzhou story, I don't see how those characterizations are irrevocably tied to the HSR metaphysics. Like, sure, Vidyadhara reincarnation thing is a fun curiosity, but Dan Heng's character dynamics/conflicts can be just as easily replaced with concepts of clones or identical twins or even an older sibling who looks really similar. The nature of Dan Heng's personality and characterization isn't inseparable from the reincarnation cycle. This is even more so with characters like Jing Yuan, whose entire character is shaped around his social position in life (professional soldier, general, politician/public servant) and not at all based on following the "path of the Hunt" or whatever. And if the rest of HSR writing is remotely in the same vein as Xianzhou story, then I don't see how the metaphysics play a role beyond being flavor when it comes to characterization of these PCs. (I talked more about flavor vs framework in another post if you want an in-depth explanation of the difference.)
I mean even with romantic confessions someone still has to broach the topic of sex. Talking about sex is just a logistical discussion and is a separate issue from confirming relationship status.
(no subject)
Date: 2024-09-20 07:10 pm (UTC)The Xianzhou story wouldn't be the Xianzhou story without the background conflict between the Abundance and the Hunt, with the backgrounds that make up the different factions of the Xianzhou natives, the Foxians (vs Borisin), the Vidyadhara. If you start generalizing too much into just social positions/jobs/etc, then you start getting into the realm of archetypes, and you start losing the specific flavors of a particular setting.
But, the amount of "acceptable deviation" from strict canon is something that is subjective to each reader. So I am just talking about me here.
(no subject)
Date: 2024-09-21 02:20 am (UTC)I mean that conflict is basically an excuse to have an alliance of disparate groups invade space!China, which is drawing on the historical events like 五胡乱华. When these fictional events are made to reproduce historical battles of repelling invaders, I can't really consider the event "critical". Like yeah, there would probably need to be historical invasions happening in the AU, but like it doesn't have to specifically be evil bug race.
All factions in fiction are drawing from RL experiences/understanding of in-group out-group dynamics. If we start telling stories with the physiological differences as the defining character trait, then we start falling into biological determinism, which is basically the start of every racist ideology.
Physical differences being there to add quirks to the character is fine (like having a kink be animal ears or something), but having that physiology define the character is... I mean obviously people can write whatever, but that world view perpetuates racist stereotypes so I'm fundamentally against that style of world building. So for me the defining traits which constitutes the character comes from personality, something inherent to the individual.
Like Dan Heng isn't defined by his Vidyadhara background (hell, he barely identifies with them in the canon). Dan Heng is a close mouthed, introverted tsundere who has become isolated from the people who are his supposed in-group and found a new in-group amongst a bunch of misfits. Changing his in-group to an influential family that kicked him out and having the group of mis-fits be a bunch of gig workers sticking together out of solidarity doesn't suddenly make Dan Heng not Dan Heng.
I know you said it's subjective, but your description essentially denies room for any form of AU. By that logic, even though Xianzhou story is pretty much copying chunks of plot and characterizations from Xianxia/Wuxia genre, with Foxians obviously inspired by 狐狸精/kitsune mythos and 天人 inspired by 仙人 and 龙尊 essentially just being 龙王, a Xianxia version of Xianzhou story would somehow not be "Xianzhou" enough.
I feel like there's still some objectivity when it comes to recognizability of AUs. After all, if we don't give credence to homophobic incels who claim slash is OOC while also accepting "official" AUs as sources to inform the characterization of a character, then we're already functioning under the belief that there is something else beyond "is canon" and "is in the original setting" that informs us, the audience, when something reproduces the core of a character. That something can't be subjective, otherwise the people who think slash is OOC would be correct in their claim and I vehemently disagree.
(no subject)
Date: 2024-09-21 02:49 am (UTC)Eh, I don't think it's a good parallel to 五胡乱华 at all. I mean, the Xianzhou were the party who declared war on the Abundance first. While the Denizens of Abundance aren't good guys by any means. It doesn't mean the Xianzhou are the total victims here either. They went out and picked those fights.
> If we start telling stories with the physiological differences as the defining character trait
I'm not talking about physical traits. I'm talking about their history, and the consequences that follows from their history. Like, with the Vidyadhara, even putting aside the issue with The Permanence that may yet be addressed in the future, their culture and their internal social conflict all revolves around their rebirth cycle and what it means for lifespan and identity. With the Foxians, we've only got a snapshot of it recently, but their culture(s) and societies are also defined by their history with the Borisin.
> Changing his in-group to an influential family that kicked him out and having the group of mis-fits be a bunch of gig workers sticking together out of solidarity doesn't suddenly make Dan Heng not Dan Heng.
Before the Luofu arc happened, sure. But after that arc and the introduction of his past, it's a little hard to separate his character with his backstory of his previous incarnation committing sins and his current incarnation having to deal with the aftermath.
> essentially denies room for any form of AU
I don't deny they exist. I do avoid reading stuff that deviates past a certain point from canon.
(no subject)
Date: 2024-09-21 04:33 am (UTC)I'm trying to match your description to the wiki. English wiki claims First Abundance War starts:
Same time corresponding to Chinese wiki says:
In neither description does it imply Xianzhou started the conflict, and in Chinese version Xianzhou was explicitly invaded.
Meanwhile, tracking the Xianzhou timeline, the earliest record of fighting Abundance is 1200:
This is way before Lan comes into the picture, so before Xianzhou have started hunting Abundance.
So I'm not sure how this portrays Xianzhou as "picking the fights". Like once the emnity starts, the military objective is to push the opponents back as much as possible. But again, that's no different from the multiple 北伐 campaigns many emperors ordered throughout Chinese history.
Ultimately, the Abundance Wars are inspired by and parallel the practically non-stop conflict across the borders China had with her neighbors, which resulted in a bunch of bloody wars. Xianzhou's civil wars are also a parallel to China's own history of multiple civil wars. These story elements are directly inspired by China's history.
I'm trying to understand why it's so important that the events have to exactly match in details before it can be considered equivalent enough to serve the same story purpose, especially when it's only meant to explain the need for militarized society.
Well, again, 1) Dan Heng doesn't even identify with the culture seeing as he canonically grew up in prison, so that culture's influence on Dan Heng as a character is far less important. 2) The identity issues addressed by the rebirth cycle can also be explored via things like clones and cyborgs. On a literary level, clones, cyborgs, rebirth are all tackling the same thought experiment.
I mean Borisin stuff is really bad, so I don't understand why anyone would want to explore it as is and not write something to fix it. But even assuming someone actually likes that canon, the central idea that the only thing separating Foxian and Borisin is their attitude towards being bloodthirsty violent animals and enslavement is pulling directly from tribal conquests. As you've even noted, the Borisins are basically stand-ins for Mongols (although I would argue they're just more the "generic northern nomadic tribes" bc there were literal hundreds of those tribes enslaving people across thousands of years) and the fact that a lot of those tribes share a common ancestor while still enslaving each other.
So there's not much in terms of issue being death with that is unique to the Borisin/Foxian set up.
Plus, only Feixiao's character development has anything to do with the Borisin connection. Other Foxians, like Jiaoqiu, Yukong, Baiheng gain nothing character-wise from the Borisin stuff.
I guess I'm not really seeing that. Being made a scapegoat is a pretty common thing even without the reincarnation. Criminals who suffer brain damage and have completely altered their personality thus deemed not persecutable due to the existence of the new identity is the RL equivalent. Sci-fi commonly have clones/cyborgs that inherit previous person's brains but a new personality emerges in the process is also pretty common. The entire transhumanism subgenre specifically deals with the question of identity when it comes to body vs memory.
But Dan Heng is more than his (perceived) sins. That's kind of the point of the original canon. His reincarnation doesn't define who he is as a person. He literally says the past can't define his future. Like...the core of Dan Heng I see is a character who breaks free from the constraints of the past and cultural expectations. The breaking free aspect is far more important to Dan Heng's character than the specifics of the past that's holding him down.
So I guess I don't agree that Dan Heng's character is inseparable from Vidyadhara heritage is what I'm saying.
I mean you're saying there's literally no way to separate Dan Heng from being a Vidyadhara. By that logic, everything we write currently potentially becomes OOC because the story isn't finished yet and later canon will completely redefine characters if more backstory twist is revealed. Might as well not read any fic at that point.
Yes, I know you're out of JY/DH ship, but the same logic applies to Aventurine/Ratio. Anything written now has the potential to become OOC with new backstory release, why bother with fic at all?
(no subject)
Date: 2024-09-21 05:47 am (UTC)The "Flaming Catastrophe" incident was the same one where Lan ascended as The Hunt and became the guiding principle of the Xianzhou Alliance, IIRC. Their philosophy after that point was that the (bad races of the) Abundance needs to be culled and that it was the Xianzhou's duty to do so.
> The breaking free aspect is far more important to Dan Heng's character than the specifics of the past that's holding him down.
Sure, but breaking free from something still indicates that there was something to break free *from*, or else the breaking free part wouldn't be meaningful, wouldn't it?
A character should be the sum of their backstory plus current actions. A character with a completely different backstory would end up with a different interpretation.
Like, if we look at a lot of the Impact 3rd expies in HSR. They generally have similar personalities, the same looks, and sometimes even similar relationships. But their different backstories is what makes these characters distinct from one another as their own character.
> By that logic, everything we write currently potentially becomes OOC because the story isn't finished yet and later canon will completely redefine characters if more backstory twist is revealed.
It's pretty common for ongoing stories to have plot points or characterization that get overturned by later canon. Like, I'm sure people who wrote HP fics featuring Sirius heavily before book 5 came out never thought Sirius would get offed so quickly. Afterwards, the story has become an AU, but that has nothing to do with the story's quality or enjoyment (or lack thereof), as long as one keeps in mind when it was written.
(no subject)
Date: 2024-09-21 07:31 am (UTC)According to timeline, Lan descended year 4000. Flaming Catastrophe occurred year 3400, which is mostly resolved by 帝弓 who gave up his body in a deal:
帝弓 referred to here predates Lan's arrival. So it's likely 帝弓 was a heroic title that got transferred to Lan. It's unlikely Lan was involved in the Flaming Catastrophe. Not sure were "Lan's Emanator" interpretation is coming from, since there logic seems to stem from both being called 帝弓 but acknowledgement of godhood was a much later event. Also (Source)
The myth is that the hero ascended to become Lan...but that's like...myth.
Since we're talking about the time after 帝弓派 became the main religion after the 600 year religious struggle for supremacy on Xianzhou, I would hardly categorize the actions after the first war as picking a fight, since the initial war was absolutely brutal. Picking a fight implies Xianzhou is instigating the conflict, but it was the Abundance races that attacked Xianzhou first. Could Xianzhou have taken a more defensive stance? Sure. Are they seeking vengeance? Definitely. But "picking a fight" is not how I would characterize what happened.
And I'd argue Dan Heng breaking free from social expectations, his own confusion about his self worth, the unfair burdens placed upon him (all vague concepts that can be fulfilled with story beats such as getting kicked out of the clan, being used as a scapegoat, wrongful accusation due to being framed, etc.) is the answer. It doesn't have to only be "sins of a past incarnation".
The existence of expies just proves my point of the existence of an intrinsic core to the character. The fact they are recognized as having the same personalities and appearance, thus are expies rather than new original character means fandom acknowledges the transference of this core identity. They keep the same name because despite the setting being different, their identity is acknowledged as being the same. Since the purpose of these expies are meant to draw in fans of the original, if expies are not recognized as the same character then the entire promotional strategy wouldn't exist.
Much like how Peter Parker in Sony's Spiderman is different from the Peter Parker of MCU's Spiderman (actor, romantic interest, social circle, even age), but are both recognized as valid interpretations of Peter Parker the character. Both are In Character. They aren't the same person to be sure, but they are the same character. No one is going to argue that just because MCU Peter Parker isn't friends with Osborn or that he fails to get together with MJ, this invalidates MCU's version of Peter Parker and only Sony's version is the one true Peter Parker.
So no, you don't have to like an AU version, but that doesn't make the interpretation OOC, which is what we're discussing whether the character remains the same.
But I see no reason why AU at time of publication is functionally different at affecting enjoyment compared to becoming AU after the fact. In other words, you're attributing the lack of enjoyment to AU (specifically deviation from canon characterizations) but the logic you're explaining to me isn't backing up that attribution.
(no subject)
Date: 2024-09-21 06:07 pm (UTC)I'll concede the point that the conflict between the Xianzhou and various Abundance blessed powers had started before they converted to Hunt. So there's a long standing tradition of conflict there, and given the typical vibe of the Denizens of Abundance, they're more likely to be the aggressors.
BTW, I've usually associated just the Borisin with the northern nomadic peoples given what we've seen of their depiction. The Wingweavers, I dunno, they feel a little like the Korean peninsula powers or Japan even...(which would make the Anti-Matter Legion the USA then; that might be taking it too far.)
> The fact they are recognized as having the same personalities and appearance, thus are expies rather than new original character means fandom acknowledges the transference of this core identity.
Eh? I don't think that's what they're trying to do with this. The fandom recognizes that there would be a similarity, but it's also very evident that these are new individual characters on their own made for the HSR game.
Like, if someone writes a story about Himeko, whether this is a HSR fanfic or a Impact 3rd fanfic would then depend on the context elements. Is this Himeko an engineer and navigator of the Astral Express or is she a researcher? Are the people she's interacting with the HSR cast or the Impact3 cast?
Then, if you write a story about Himeko being, say, a normal earth sports club manager with little to no other references in story to elements of either fandom, then it doesn't make a lot of difference if you point at that story and say it's an AU of HSR vs an AU of Impact3. The distinction at that point is meaningless since it's so removed from the elements of either setting.
> But I see no reason why AU at time of publication is functionally different at affecting enjoyment compared to becoming AU after the fact. In other words, you're attributing the lack of enjoyment to AU (specifically deviation from canon characterizations) but the logic you're explaining to me isn't backing up that attribution.
I am speaking of my subjective preference in this case. And, like, I'm getting the impression you think I automatically hate anything that's AU from a strict adherence to canon...which isn't the case.
As I mentioned before, AUs range a wide spectrum going from "what-if" scenarios (which this example of branching away from book 5 would count under) to the more extreme ones where only the names are recognizable. What I feel like tolerating is usually somewhere along that spectrum, and can differ between fandoms. I don't usually sit down and analyze it; more often I make the judgement after reading the summary or the first few paragraphs. As a tendency, I do like stories that try to follow some level of canon rather than something almost unrecognizable. But I'd don't require slavish adherence to it, or I'd just be reading the original.
Regarding the specific example of AU at time of publication vs AU after completion... it's usually due to comparisons made after the story's completion, and the state of mind, I guess. Like, when reading a continuance fic when a series is still WIP, it's usually to get a fix while waiting for the updates. But when the story has completed, and then looking back on that now "what-if" story, the state of mind would be different. Sometimes it's still enjoyable. Sometimes it feels wanting.
And really, this isn't something restricted to AUs. If I go back to fics I've saved from a few years ago and review them, I might not still like all of them anymore. Sometimes because I've dropped out of whatever fandom. Sometimes because my tastes or opinions on things have changed.
(no subject)
Date: 2024-09-22 02:35 am (UTC)This seems to imply Lan can shoot Their arrow/weapons into any time. Because god, I guess. So it is possible that Lan had a hand in helping the nameless hero 帝弓 (title) without "appearing" before the Xianzhou people to aid in their conversion to Their path. But that seems a bit petty for a god, so it's probably more "fate" and Lan, for some reason having claimed this fleet as Their followers, is aiding the past-Xianzhou in their survival efforts, thus forming the timey-wimey cycle.
I think there is some difference in how we are using the word "character". Both the fictional construct and the personality is called "character". For example, in the phrase "Donald Trump's character is a fascistic totalitarian", "character" is talking about "personality" or "personhood". In the phrase "there is a character called Himeko in HSR", "character" is referring to the "role" or "narrative construct".
So, when I'm talking about IC or OOC or "Dan Heng's character", that's referring to the personhood concept of character, aka "does this behavior make sense given the core personality of the fictional identity". Whereas how you're using character is referring to the narrative construct. So yes, in the sense that the narrative construct of the character Himeko of HSR is entwined with the narrative setting of HSR and thus is a different narrative construct than the character Himeko of Impact 3rd who is tied to the setting of Impact the 3rd, they are different characters.
But, in the concept of "personality", then Himeko's character across both works need to be the same in order to serve the function of luring gamers of Impact 3rd to try out HSR. If Himeko is OOC, then even though the two characters (narrative construct) share the same name, it's clear they don't have the same character (personhood).
Does that clarify our disagreement?
I have been interpreting what you're saying as "AUs make a character OOC because AUs change the setting and a character cannot be separated from the setting, which is why I don't like them". And yes, AUs have a very wide range of "deviating from canon", but I'm focusing specifically on the AU spectrum that involves "setting change" (and I believe "major plot twist" constitutes a "change in setting", since the purpose of a plot twist is to re-contextualize the previous assumptions about the setting), since that is what you seem to be objecting to based on the comment about the metaphysics of HSR being part of the core reason you're reading fic.
Fair. I was interpreting it as you saying it's an AU thing in the previous back-and-forth. I have been corrected.
(no subject)
Date: 2024-09-22 04:46 am (UTC)English is so insufficient sometimes and I don't know CN writing well enough to use that, lol. Why haven't we invented telepathic messaging systems?
> Does that clarify our disagreement?
Mmmmmaybe? I sorta get it, but I'm not sure how to communicate on the same wavelength using the vocabulary that I have.
> I'm focusing specifically on the AU spectrum that involves "setting change" (and I believe "major plot twist" constitutes a "change in setting", since the purpose of a plot twist is to re-contextualize the previous assumptions about the setting), since that is what you seem to be objecting to based on the comment about the metaphysics of HSR being part of the core reason you're reading fic.
Em... not...entirely? Hm. How to say this. I don't think "major plot twist" necessarily equates to "setting change". That is, by "major plot twist" we mean that something happened somewhere along the plot that is drastically different from canon.
Like, for instance, an HP fic with Neville becoming the boy who lived instead of Harry, or Sirius surviving book 5, or even Vernon drops Harry off at an US orphanage and Harry grows up in Murica, I would consider a major plot twist but not a setting change. (Though, whether I'd enjoy those premises would depend on if the first few paragraphs/chapters actually grab my attention.)
A "setting change" would be like the cast of Harry Potter in modern US non-magic high school, or the cast of HP as a noir detective story, or the cast of HP growing up in crossover setting X (though this would be getting into the realm of crossovers which is its separate thing). I'm less likely to even open these fics (with the exception of some crossovers, depending on how much I liked the other fandom).
Anyway, I guess I can be a little clearer about what I look for in HSR fanfics in specific: I prefer the whole metaphysics of Aeons either be vaguely canon-compliant (if relevant to the story), or ignored (as in not relevant to the story), but preferably not replaced by some other underlying system (exception being PWPs where it is there for the kink). I prefer characters in their canon gender identity (because I am reading this fandom for the CP, and so the way sex or the kink happens does matter). I ignore fics with SIs, OCs, xovers (because most of those involve Genshin or Impact 3rd and I have no context for those), and characters I dislike (*coughSundaycough*).
(no subject)
Date: 2024-09-22 09:45 am (UTC)Let me use DHIL release as an example. Prior to finding out about DHIL, the audience assumes DH is a normal person, aka ages regularly like Welt or Himeko. From the audience's perspective, DH's reluctance to set foot on Luofu without knowing about DHIL is constrained to what he could have done as a regular person to make him persona non grata. If someone came up with a Xianxia fanfic about dragon people existing on Luofu and actually DH was their leader and there was a huge political mess that got DH exiled from Luofu it would seem like it ought to be tagged as AU. Sure, the location name might still be 罗浮, but the story is not "sci-fi" like Belobog (which sets the expectations for the HSR universe). Even more so if the fanfic makes the previously assumed to be regular teenager DH a 200-year-old dragon person. Prior to DHIL (patch 1.2?), this would seem extremely AU.
But then DHIL is released (plot twist), and actually DH was a dragon boy all along! He's actually older than he looks! He has magic! For the audience, the constraints of canon has suddenly shifted. Dragon people can exist. Magic reincarnation is a thing. Magical control over water can happen. These things that used to "violate the setting" are suddenly canon. This is what I mean when I say the plot twist is effectively a setting change. The audience's understanding of the rules of the universe has so dramatically shifted that the story might as well have taken place in another universe.
Right, so in my previous DHIL example, I'm pointing out how the audience's understanding of the system completely shifted with the Luofu arc. There's nothing stopping HSR writers from going "actually, the aeons are gamers and the entire HSR universe was one giant Impact 3rd TTRPG campaign and we were writing a story-within-a-story this whole time".
Now if that happened, I would argue that it is perfectly reasonable to say, "that plot twist is stupid, I reject your reality and replace it with my own". Similarly, for certain aspects of HSR metaphysical rules, like infinite hyperspace personal storage, if someone decided "that's a stupid narrative explanation for a game play QOL feature, I'm ignoring it", I would say that's also perfectly reasonable.
On the flip side, if someone decided "I'm writing a historical AU with the Xianzhou characters because the canon story is practically a period drama anyway", I would argue that's a perfectly reasonable AU and the lack of paths and aeons wouldn't cause OOC-ness. Borisins are recast as the northern nomadic tribes. The Wingweavers are recast as an island nation. Foxians are minority immigrants who integrated. Etc. Like sure, the setting is different, but that doesn't really alter the character (personhood) of the Xianzhou characters.
Or say an Aventurine/Ratio fic is set in an AU where Aventurine is part of the board of directors of a global megacorporation and Ratio teaches at a prestigious university. That setup, whilst not part of the original HSR universe, still preserves the original character dynamics. I'm questioning how absolutely necessary the existence of IPC and Intelligensia Guild and having Aventurine/Ratio possessing powers (the setting) is to keeping Aventurine and Ratio in-character. It sounded like you're saying that kind of AU would still make the characters OOC, because there's no paths to walk and they wouldn't have their powers per the HSR setting.
(no subject)
Date: 2024-09-22 04:35 pm (UTC)Eh, no? Something like DHIL's reveal isn't a violation of the setting because by definition of the in game story being what defines canon. A story written pre-reveal having him as a normal human would retroactively become "AU" after the reveal happens.
A story written pre-reveal that actually matches the Vidyadhara background might lead one to suspect the writer read leaks of the plot beforehand. The story itself would've gone from a more extreme AU to a more canon-compliant story, if we're just talking labels.
> There's nothing stopping HSR writers from going "actually, the aeons are gamers and the entire HSR universe was one giant Impact 3rd TTRPG campaign and we were writing a story-within-a-story this whole time".
You mean something like this? =P
> that plot twist is stupid, I reject your reality and replace it with my own
More seriously, sure, and that's the point at which people who don't like the direction the canon story is going is going to drop out of the game, and potentially the fandom.
With regards to fanfic, there are certainly precedents for how fans react to "bad" canon writing. For example, Highlander fics that ignore the last season or just Richie's death. SG1 fics that ignores the last 2 seasons. So forth. They're AU premises that are very popular with writers & readers, but no one claims it's not AU.
> It sounded like you're saying that kind of AU would still make the characters OOC, because there's no paths to walk and they wouldn't have their powers per the HSR setting.
For this specific modern earth AU example, if it's a pure PWP or fluff piece, then it doesn't really matter. But if it's a corporate espionage story, for example, then I wouldn't be interested, because such a story would lack the sci-fi elements and scale that comes with the HSR background.
(no subject)
Date: 2024-09-22 10:16 pm (UTC)I think this is were the disagreement is coming from. From a "what is canon" after the fact (post-hoc), yes, what has already been written is the canon. What hasn't been written is AU.
However, before the fact (ad-hoc), absent of any further clues, the exact same scenario is judged based on how well it potentially fits.
I'm not talking about whether the scenario (regardless of officiality) is defined as canon post-hoc. I'm talking about whether the scenario feels reasonable ad-hoc.
The mental state of the audience going from Belobog to Luofu is no less drastic of a shift than going from canon to AU fanfic. The only reason the later is rated as "actually AU" is purely due to a single variable: it isn't official.
What I'm trying to point out is that officiality shouldn't be used to judge whether the writing is in-character. If everything official is automatically IC, then that means no one can criticise the official writing for being out-of-character. This is patently false. The audience is capable of judging characterizations as OOC, even in the original work. This is because characterization is set up at the beginning of the story, and when the story (canon) fails to properly develop a character arc, the character (fictional construct) becomes OOC.
However, it seems like you are arguing that it is impossible for canon to write a character OOC because as long as it's canon, then it is by definition IC. I can only say that I disagree with that definition and that is not at all how IC vs OOC is judged. At least not in fandom (nor in lit crit) where bad canon is called out for character OOCness all the time.
Here's an article talking about how original writers keep their own writing IC and avoid writing OOC characters. As you see, even in canon, the characters can become OOC.
Except for how that's not what happens at all. Extremely large chunks of fans stick to fandom by simply ignoring the canon they disagree with. This is the reason why canon deviation is a large fraction of fanfic. That doesn't make those AU fics OOC, it just makes the fic AU.
Again, I'm not talking about whether the story is AU. I'm talking about the false equivalence of canon with IC and AU with OOC. Just because something is canon doesn't automatically make it IC.
But your lack of interest in this case has nothing to do with IC vs OOC. That's what I'm pointing out. The setting not having HSR elements doesn't make the characters of the fanfic OOC.
(no subject)
Date: 2024-09-23 03:30 am (UTC)Yeah, I think the conversation at this point has pretty much whittle down to our different perspectives of what canon and IC/OOC consists of.
> However, it seems like you are arguing that it is impossible for canon to write a character OOC because as long as it's canon, then it is by definition IC.
Yes, that's the way I consider it. At least, the range of what can be considered IC is determined by the primary source material, plus the interpretation of that primary source by the reader (me).
> At least not in fandom (nor in lit crit) where bad canon is called out for character OOCness all the time.
Right, that's how you consider the usage of "canon" and "IC/OOC".
In those circumstances, I would still call it bad writing and whatever, and depending on the situation, prefer fics that ignored it. But at the same I also wouldn't call it out of character as a matter of terminology.
(no subject)
Date: 2024-09-23 04:16 am (UTC)I mean I think things are mostly cleared up at this point, but I want to address this:
The majority of people use IC/OOC in the way I've been using it (see previous comment's link to article discussing how to avoid OOC as a writer of original fiction). This isn't a "personal definition" thing. This is a general writing thing.
OOC indicates a case of bad writing. If you call something OOC, most people aren't going to interpret what you're saying to mean "the setting is too AU for me personally"; they're going to read that as "this fanfic's interpretation of the character is objectively unrecognizable from what had been depicted in the original work".