Alt-history is a genre for masochists
Dec. 9th, 2023 08:38 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
tanithryudoYears ago, I went through a phase where I was into Alt history stories as written by western authors. There was Eric Flint's 1932 series and the whole genre of ISOT that followed it. There was a forum I frequently which often drew up long alt-history timelines based on various changes to real life history.
Of course, most of the stories/threads I enjoyed were centered around US/Europe/Russia/etc. Anything related to China (and there really weren't much) I ignored because it was obvious they are writing China-in-name-only due to cultural limitations. And then I lost interest due to too much 'Murica F*ck Yeah.
Recently, there has been a surge of alt-history stories on Chinese sites. Specifically, the [历史直播] genre has been sweeping jjwxc by storm. They're everywhere. The basic idea of it is essentially, historical education videos (similar to what you would find on bilibili) are getting broadcasted to various imperial china settings as a heavenly viewscreen, and the story basically consists of the info in those broadcasts, and reaction shots of various historical figures, and the impacts on various points of history.
At first, there was a couple I enjoyed just for the content of the historical broadcasts. Some of it is informative, China having such a long and colorful history, and lots of parts are literally were life was stranger/grander than art could be.
Then slowly, after reading so...very...many...of these stories, the problem of quality again becomes apparent. A lot of these are so very cookie-cutter, and often filled with inaccurate history directly copied off some wiki. So very few authors bother to research into the actual history, and instead use pop history (or the stuff from TV dramas *rolleyes*).
Even moreso getting on my nerves now, are the depictions of historical figures, which you could swap them for some modern rando and it wouldn't be a jarring change. Almost nobody bothers to respect the fact these guys are charismatic leaders, genius strategists, or career politicians.
I will throw out some names here.
秦始皇 is like the new pop star of history or something. So many authors dream of "saving" Qin by making 刘邦 and his famed historical supporters into Qin employees. Of 墨家 magically being able to take 《天工开物》 or even more modern texts from the Qing/Republic eras, and then directly move into 科举制 and industrialization within a single generation. Oh, and the ever present meme of giving 秦始皇 a world map resulting in Qin conquering the world (or at least Europe) in order to "save" modern students from having to learn English. Just... eh. Great fantasy, I guess?
Poor 汉武帝 often gets relegated into comedic relief. These stories/sections are often focused on 卫青 & 霍去病 and their military exploits. The political and economic achievements of 汉武帝 are often glossed over in favor of focusing on his 后宫, the sad fate of his crown prince, and the (historically nonexistent) "罪己诏" that "proves" he regretted his policies earlier in his reign. He's not my favorite emperor, but he sure gets my sympathies after reading too many of these stories.
And then there's 唐太宗, who I will admit beforehand is my favorite ancient chinese historical figure, and whom I'd written a term paper on back at Cal. Also one of the most admired emperors even historically speaking, by the Song literati, the Ming founders, and even more recent figures (aka. "自古能君无出李世民之右者，其次则朱元璋耳"). But unfortunately, he's now a victim of pop culture, often cast as minor character or even antagonist of modern Tang related dramas, resulting in a lot of smearing via fake history and rabid drama fans.
Like, 隋炀帝 is now getting whitewashed as a 明君 who's "工在千秋"? WTF? Depopulating 3/4 of the population is "工在千秋" for works that he neither succeeded in nor invented？
Like, 李建成 is now getting whitewashed as an excellent "守城之君" who would've done perfectly well on the throne? WTF? We're just ignoring the awful decisions he is on record for supporting during 李渊's reign? And making up "feats" to support his excellency in governance? Feats such as 李世民 having to make up for logistics on his own while on campaign rather than getting support from home? [/sarcasm]
Like, even when forced to having to admit 李世民 is an excellent emperor in the history of chinese leaders (because reality, people), don't think I don't notice various authors still keep trying to downplay his achievements by pretty much glossing over pretty much all the nitty details of his policies as ruler, and (again) focusing on the drama of his succession issues and his 后宫. Oh, and the overly used cliche of him worrying about how the future historians/public will view his 玄武门之变.
And also I have noticed that these "broadcasts", often times with various emperors, the story will stop at the end of that emperor's life & reign. With 李世民 they will often go the extra step of continuing to talk about Tang up through 安史之乱 or even late Tang. Like, I have to ask, what does that have to do with 李世民? It's impossible for him to fix stuff that happens a century down the line. So it's just an excuse for him to spit blood/get mad at his descendants? (Not that IMO he'd be that affected by something so detached as an nth gen descendant, honestly.) Oh, and the not-so-subtle implication that the problems of Tang as a 300 year dynasty are his karmic desserts for implementing 玄武门之变.
Just.....ugh. Writing up a defense on behalf of 唐太宗 is gonna be whole 'nother essay by itself.
I'll end this one with a couple of rec links for the rare diamond among the rough.
剧透历史：从三国开始 - This one only focuses on only a few time periods instead of trying to capture all points of history. The broadcast only showing up for 刘备 (in the time period after 赤壁 and before 关羽's death), 李世民 (early in his reign), and 宋太主 (only just introduced and not much screen time). It also focuses a lot more on the impact of the broadcast and the changes to history. Involves 诸葛亮 going down the mad inventor/master economist role and 庞统 taking over the military strategist role along with the in depth military/political/social analysis of their enemy kingdoms giving 刘备 the upper hand is a somewhat realistic development. Slightly smaller focus on Tang since they're in no longer in the middle of war/turmoil anymore, but I am looking forward to the seeds being planted of glassworks (and potentially the telescope/microscope), 医学 (realistic since 唐太宗 had historically established a medical academy/institution to deal with plagues that accompanied droughts and other calamities in the early 贞观 years), and gunpowder (also realistic, since military use of gunpower stared during mid-Tang). The only thing I don't agree with is the characterization of certain Tang people, but at least it's not as cliched as many other works.
开局为李世民剧透玄武门[历史直播] - This one also focuses on a few time periods. I don't quite like the Qin section because of the natural conflict with early Han characters. I skipped the 武周 section because I don't have high hopes for jjwxc authors whenever the topic even tangentially touches on feminism. I do like the sections for 汉武帝 and 唐太宗, though the near future segments of those timelines are a bit unrealistic, but it is an interesting future to dream about.
我靠宠妃系统当了秦始皇的国师 - This one isn't history broadcast genre but rather the traditional fast transmigration with system genre. Each era has a different system ability and thus a different...style, I guess. I really liked the Tang section, specifically the character design and depiction. This has to be my favorite written version of 李世民. The changes to history that get introduced aren't as big as in other works or even other sections of this same story, but honestly, 贞观 was a widely admired reign even in vanilla history. It doesn't need "fixing" as much as some other time periods (*coughSongcough*).
朱元璋穿成了朱祁镇[历史直播] - This is a weird variation of the broadcast genre. Basically the founding (or most famous) emperors of a dynasty gets transmigrated to replace one of their descendants which nearly ruined said dynasty. They then get to watch a localized broadcast of the infamy of said descendant they're replacing (other emperors in the series also get to watch these without transmigrating). Then afterwards, the transmigrated emperor gets to fix things. Of course, my favorite part is 唐太宗 having to replace 唐玄宗 (the latter already halfway in his downward spiral), and basically having to prevent 安史之乱 (this part is awesome) and then also fixing the underlying issues with the empire.
给秦皇汉武直播长寿秘诀 - Humor bordering on crack. It's quite obviously not to be taken seriously, and the characterizations of various historical figures are a bit "modernized" in the name of humor. In the second half, the various historical figures get to use the System to play simulation games (where they get placed into historical situations as themselves but optionally without their original life's memories). The first example of 刘彻穿吕雉 is absolutely hilarious. XD
Of course, most of the stories/threads I enjoyed were centered around US/Europe/Russia/etc. Anything related to China (and there really weren't much) I ignored because it was obvious they are writing China-in-name-only due to cultural limitations. And then I lost interest due to too much 'Murica F*ck Yeah.
Recently, there has been a surge of alt-history stories on Chinese sites. Specifically, the [历史直播] genre has been sweeping jjwxc by storm. They're everywhere. The basic idea of it is essentially, historical education videos (similar to what you would find on bilibili) are getting broadcasted to various imperial china settings as a heavenly viewscreen, and the story basically consists of the info in those broadcasts, and reaction shots of various historical figures, and the impacts on various points of history.
At first, there was a couple I enjoyed just for the content of the historical broadcasts. Some of it is informative, China having such a long and colorful history, and lots of parts are literally were life was stranger/grander than art could be.
Then slowly, after reading so...very...many...of these stories, the problem of quality again becomes apparent. A lot of these are so very cookie-cutter, and often filled with inaccurate history directly copied off some wiki. So very few authors bother to research into the actual history, and instead use pop history (or the stuff from TV dramas *rolleyes*).
Even moreso getting on my nerves now, are the depictions of historical figures, which you could swap them for some modern rando and it wouldn't be a jarring change. Almost nobody bothers to respect the fact these guys are charismatic leaders, genius strategists, or career politicians.
I will throw out some names here.
秦始皇 is like the new pop star of history or something. So many authors dream of "saving" Qin by making 刘邦 and his famed historical supporters into Qin employees. Of 墨家 magically being able to take 《天工开物》 or even more modern texts from the Qing/Republic eras, and then directly move into 科举制 and industrialization within a single generation. Oh, and the ever present meme of giving 秦始皇 a world map resulting in Qin conquering the world (or at least Europe) in order to "save" modern students from having to learn English. Just... eh. Great fantasy, I guess?
Poor 汉武帝 often gets relegated into comedic relief. These stories/sections are often focused on 卫青 & 霍去病 and their military exploits. The political and economic achievements of 汉武帝 are often glossed over in favor of focusing on his 后宫, the sad fate of his crown prince, and the (historically nonexistent) "罪己诏" that "proves" he regretted his policies earlier in his reign. He's not my favorite emperor, but he sure gets my sympathies after reading too many of these stories.
And then there's 唐太宗, who I will admit beforehand is my favorite ancient chinese historical figure, and whom I'd written a term paper on back at Cal. Also one of the most admired emperors even historically speaking, by the Song literati, the Ming founders, and even more recent figures (aka. "自古能君无出李世民之右者，其次则朱元璋耳"). But unfortunately, he's now a victim of pop culture, often cast as minor character or even antagonist of modern Tang related dramas, resulting in a lot of smearing via fake history and rabid drama fans.
Like, 隋炀帝 is now getting whitewashed as a 明君 who's "工在千秋"? WTF? Depopulating 3/4 of the population is "工在千秋" for works that he neither succeeded in nor invented？
Like, 李建成 is now getting whitewashed as an excellent "守城之君" who would've done perfectly well on the throne? WTF? We're just ignoring the awful decisions he is on record for supporting during 李渊's reign? And making up "feats" to support his excellency in governance? Feats such as 李世民 having to make up for logistics on his own while on campaign rather than getting support from home? [/sarcasm]
Like, even when forced to having to admit 李世民 is an excellent emperor in the history of chinese leaders (because reality, people), don't think I don't notice various authors still keep trying to downplay his achievements by pretty much glossing over pretty much all the nitty details of his policies as ruler, and (again) focusing on the drama of his succession issues and his 后宫. Oh, and the overly used cliche of him worrying about how the future historians/public will view his 玄武门之变.
And also I have noticed that these "broadcasts", often times with various emperors, the story will stop at the end of that emperor's life & reign. With 李世民 they will often go the extra step of continuing to talk about Tang up through 安史之乱 or even late Tang. Like, I have to ask, what does that have to do with 李世民? It's impossible for him to fix stuff that happens a century down the line. So it's just an excuse for him to spit blood/get mad at his descendants? (Not that IMO he'd be that affected by something so detached as an nth gen descendant, honestly.) Oh, and the not-so-subtle implication that the problems of Tang as a 300 year dynasty are his karmic desserts for implementing 玄武门之变.
Just.....ugh. Writing up a defense on behalf of 唐太宗 is gonna be whole 'nother essay by itself.
I'll end this one with a couple of rec links for the rare diamond among the rough.
剧透历史：从三国开始 - This one only focuses on only a few time periods instead of trying to capture all points of history. The broadcast only showing up for 刘备 (in the time period after 赤壁 and before 关羽's death), 李世民 (early in his reign), and 宋太主 (only just introduced and not much screen time). It also focuses a lot more on the impact of the broadcast and the changes to history. Involves 诸葛亮 going down the mad inventor/master economist role and 庞统 taking over the military strategist role along with the in depth military/political/social analysis of their enemy kingdoms giving 刘备 the upper hand is a somewhat realistic development. Slightly smaller focus on Tang since they're in no longer in the middle of war/turmoil anymore, but I am looking forward to the seeds being planted of glassworks (and potentially the telescope/microscope), 医学 (realistic since 唐太宗 had historically established a medical academy/institution to deal with plagues that accompanied droughts and other calamities in the early 贞观 years), and gunpowder (also realistic, since military use of gunpower stared during mid-Tang). The only thing I don't agree with is the characterization of certain Tang people, but at least it's not as cliched as many other works.
开局为李世民剧透玄武门[历史直播] - This one also focuses on a few time periods. I don't quite like the Qin section because of the natural conflict with early Han characters. I skipped the 武周 section because I don't have high hopes for jjwxc authors whenever the topic even tangentially touches on feminism. I do like the sections for 汉武帝 and 唐太宗, though the near future segments of those timelines are a bit unrealistic, but it is an interesting future to dream about.
我靠宠妃系统当了秦始皇的国师 - This one isn't history broadcast genre but rather the traditional fast transmigration with system genre. Each era has a different system ability and thus a different...style, I guess. I really liked the Tang section, specifically the character design and depiction. This has to be my favorite written version of 李世民. The changes to history that get introduced aren't as big as in other works or even other sections of this same story, but honestly, 贞观 was a widely admired reign even in vanilla history. It doesn't need "fixing" as much as some other time periods (*coughSongcough*).
朱元璋穿成了朱祁镇[历史直播] - This is a weird variation of the broadcast genre. Basically the founding (or most famous) emperors of a dynasty gets transmigrated to replace one of their descendants which nearly ruined said dynasty. They then get to watch a localized broadcast of the infamy of said descendant they're replacing (other emperors in the series also get to watch these without transmigrating). Then afterwards, the transmigrated emperor gets to fix things. Of course, my favorite part is 唐太宗 having to replace 唐玄宗 (the latter already halfway in his downward spiral), and basically having to prevent 安史之乱 (this part is awesome) and then also fixing the underlying issues with the empire.
给秦皇汉武直播长寿秘诀 - Humor bordering on crack. It's quite obviously not to be taken seriously, and the characterizations of various historical figures are a bit "modernized" in the name of humor. In the second half, the various historical figures get to use the System to play simulation games (where they get placed into historical situations as themselves but optionally without their original life's memories). The first example of 刘彻穿吕雉 is absolutely hilarious. XD
(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-10 06:53 am (UTC)Not sure where the new let's save Qin is coming from. I know that historically, 秦始皇 isn't actually as bad as the "historical" texts made him out to be. He just pissed off the elites by uprooting a lot of the old customs and also kind of lost his mind towards the end of his reign. But objectively speaking, I think we can cut the man some slack for wiping out one-seventh of the population when 汉武帝 (a much more popular emperor) managed to take out 20% of the population by the time he was done. Like, was the man ruthless? Yes. But also he was a man of his times and honestly not that much worse than the other emperors.
Also, 罪己诏 was non-existent? Please send link. I need this. For reasons. (lll￢ω￢)
(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-10 08:29 am (UTC)In the mean time, while conquering the other kingdoms, the nobility were not all killed off, and many still harbored dreams of rebellion. Like 项羽, 张良, etc. So there's also a race between "digesting" the conquered lands, versus this powder keg that has the potential to explode as soon as there's signs of weakness (ie. 秦始皇's death). Unfortunately, Qin at that time doesn't have the tools for speeding up pacification and conversion unlike future dynasties which were built on 儒家.
But whatever means to "save" Qin, it's not gonna be through single-generation industrialization. And honestly, IMO, Han did such a good job through the collective efforts of half a dozen capable emperors, that I feel there really isn't any need to "save" Qin and erase Han. (Similarly, I am not fond of stories where they try to whitewash/save Sui and erase Tang.)
As for 汉武帝, from what I understand, it was originally a "轮台诏" which was essentially an announcement about changes in policy. There's nothing about regretting the rest of his reign about it. But later Song politician 司马光 turned it into a "罪己诏" as a means of critiquing contemporary stuff, and the new version spread to become pop knowledge.
Original text & translation: https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%BD%AE%E5%8F%B0%E8%AF%8F
Analysis: https://www.163.com/dy/article/I24S7S940553MUXD.html
(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-10 08:42 am (UTC)Thanks for link!
WRT the war machine: It's more than 秦始皇 pissed off the Confucian scholars, who still held a lot of sway over the major families etc. and legalism was...uh, also pissing people off. Now I'm beginning to think a huge push for wanting to erase the Han dynasty comes from domestic resentment of current ruling regime...
WRT Han dynasty in specific: The utter irony of it all being that the founding emperor of Han admired and looked up to the Qin political system, basically adopted it wholesale with the exception of elevating the Confucian scholars to a higher social standing, thus consolidating the Liu family's control in the centralized system - a thing that Qin couldn't succeed due to the heavy push back from the Confucian followers in positions of power. Of course, a lot of people also seem to ignore the 180 turn in Confucian scholars' attitude towards centralized governance during the Qin-to-Han upheaval, so...meh.
(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-10 05:53 pm (UTC)And thus later on after that line of philosophy became the mainstream, and the pot of "焚书坑儒" was firmly placed on 秦始皇, whose rep in later dynasties ain't that good. Similarly 汉武帝, and the historical criticism of 穷兵黩武. But the thing is, this is the judgment of Confucian scholars of later time periods, and not so much popular modern thought anymore.
Nowadays, both of these guys are "千古一帝" with "工在千秋". Primarily it's the emphasis on them being the "first" in creating/implementing various policies. 秦始皇 being the first to unify China and the start of 封建社会, creating 郡县制, etc. 汉武帝 for showing the strength of Han ethnicity by defeating 匈奴; implementing 州部, monetary policy, etc.; improvements on metalworking, farming, etc.
IMO, sure, pioneers should get some slack for being pioneers. But with Qin and Han so close together, I feel that early Han should get as much credit for the pioneer work that Qin started. And, I feel that Han proved that while said policies are viable (and historically "correct"), they also proved that these changes aren't something that can be pushed into place in the span of a single generation like 秦始皇 appears to have wanted. Han is a miracle in history with as many as seven 明君 in succession. That's not something I think one can trust to repeat with Qin (which if you count its kingdom days, already had a line of 6 decent rulers, so no wonder they were in line for substandard heirs at 秦始皇's generation, lol). So the what ifs trying to "save" Qin and erase Han, I feel, are more fantastical thinking and strain my SOD.