Finally Saw CA:CW Yesterday...
May. 29th, 2016 10:47 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
tanithryudoYes it's good. It didn't disappoint even though I had fully spoiled myself on the plot before walking into the theater. (Aside: And a nice theater it was too; a new AMC at the New Park Mall which had large leather couches for seats, with an electronic foot rest. Nice.)
It did feel a bit more like an Avengers film than a strictly Cap film, mostly due to the large ensemble cast and the extra focus on other character arcs besides Cap's. Of course, as an Avengers film, I think it'd probably the be best of the three, just slighting inching out the first Avengers film.
As a Cap film, I still think CATWS is better, but this one is certainly not bad, and can tie for second place with CATFA.
The part I liked the best about this film was the characterization and character progression. The background and world building aspects of the MCU still continues to be a bit WTF and full of plot holes. But once the plot kicks off and people on both sides start making it worse, pretty much all of their actions give me the impression of "yeah, I can see them doing that, the idiot" rather than "OOC! slander!" More than anything else, this movie shows the audience our heroes' feet of clay, and it does it well like many other MCU movies.
As for the specific character arcs... I think Tony's and T'Challa's were the best done, while as a fangirl I was most invested in the Cap/Bucky relationship.
Also, about Tony's arc... well in some ways you could call the whole movie - The Continuing Downward Spiral of Tony Stark's Manpain. The man has a history of making bad decisions...or rash decisions based on emotional trauma. So of course he gets suckerpunched in the feels right at the beginning of the film and it gets worse from there. His murderous rampage at the very end was well foreshadowed by the way he just out of hand shoots Sam, even though Rhodey's fall was the direct result of a friendly fire accident (and the fact that Sam was the nearest EMT fergodsakes).
On the other hand, the Cap/Bucky arc was just a bit disappointing in how little of it we got. Yes, I know they had to share a lot of the screentime with everyone else. And yes, I shouldn't expect the movie to have these 'manly men' go all weepy and make goo-goo eyes at each other like all the fanfics do. But still... *pouts*
The fangirl in me is just not satisfied considering this movie kinda puts a coda on the Steve/Bucky ship, which makes post-movie fics of anything but the AU sort not really workable. It also razes the Steve/Tony ship to the ground, not that I was invested in that ship anymore after getting tired of all the pro-Tony section of fandom.
Now, some stuff I didn't like...
I still think a lot of the background/world-building of the MCU still doesn't make any sense, and this film is no exception. I mean, 117 nations are ready to ratify something mere days after the latest Avengers mission? Either that or it was in the works since Sokovia but no one had heard of it until now? Really? Bureaucracy doesn't work like that. International politics doesn't work like that...
Ross' whole presentation was nonsensical and I think the problems with it has already been raised by other fans online.
The villain's hyper-competence was a little hard to swallow since he was un-enhanced, working alone, and not particularly noted to be a genius/savant or whatever. But I could find enough SoD to let it go.
I also thought the airport fight scene was a little too long and action-porny. Rather like the IM/Hulk fight from AoU. But I guess I wasn't the targeted audience for that segment. I doubt the various versus forms would be satisfied with everyone's showing though...
One final note of something I liked about this film. It managed to avert the trope of "miscommunication kills", which is the tiresome way that normal Hollywood films use to push plot along. In CW, at the critical junctures, people do try to concisely explain why they're doing what they're doing. The conflict arises instead from the idea of "there's no talking to someone who won't listen", which is a much more human and empathetic failing.
The driving characters (Tony, Cap, Ross, T'challa) have all made up their minds at the beginning, and simply aren't open to actually listening to anything contrary. They rationalize away how their opponents must be wrong, and how their argument is the only way. Then add in the time crunch and it's no wonder everything imploded.
The Avengers are all people with extraordinary powers/skills which are fully capable of handling most external threats. But they're also fallible human beings, many of them with histories of trauma and no therapy, and thus utterly vulnerable to attacks from the emotional/domestic side of things. I mean, hell, that was already foreshadowed in Age of Ultron.
It did feel a bit more like an Avengers film than a strictly Cap film, mostly due to the large ensemble cast and the extra focus on other character arcs besides Cap's. Of course, as an Avengers film, I think it'd probably the be best of the three, just slighting inching out the first Avengers film.
As a Cap film, I still think CATWS is better, but this one is certainly not bad, and can tie for second place with CATFA.
The part I liked the best about this film was the characterization and character progression. The background and world building aspects of the MCU still continues to be a bit WTF and full of plot holes. But once the plot kicks off and people on both sides start making it worse, pretty much all of their actions give me the impression of "yeah, I can see them doing that, the idiot" rather than "OOC! slander!" More than anything else, this movie shows the audience our heroes' feet of clay, and it does it well like many other MCU movies.
As for the specific character arcs... I think Tony's and T'Challa's were the best done, while as a fangirl I was most invested in the Cap/Bucky relationship.
Also, about Tony's arc... well in some ways you could call the whole movie - The Continuing Downward Spiral of Tony Stark's Manpain. The man has a history of making bad decisions...or rash decisions based on emotional trauma. So of course he gets suckerpunched in the feels right at the beginning of the film and it gets worse from there. His murderous rampage at the very end was well foreshadowed by the way he just out of hand shoots Sam, even though Rhodey's fall was the direct result of a friendly fire accident (and the fact that Sam was the nearest EMT fergodsakes).
On the other hand, the Cap/Bucky arc was just a bit disappointing in how little of it we got. Yes, I know they had to share a lot of the screentime with everyone else. And yes, I shouldn't expect the movie to have these 'manly men' go all weepy and make goo-goo eyes at each other like all the fanfics do. But still... *pouts*
The fangirl in me is just not satisfied considering this movie kinda puts a coda on the Steve/Bucky ship, which makes post-movie fics of anything but the AU sort not really workable. It also razes the Steve/Tony ship to the ground, not that I was invested in that ship anymore after getting tired of all the pro-Tony section of fandom.
Now, some stuff I didn't like...
I still think a lot of the background/world-building of the MCU still doesn't make any sense, and this film is no exception. I mean, 117 nations are ready to ratify something mere days after the latest Avengers mission? Either that or it was in the works since Sokovia but no one had heard of it until now? Really? Bureaucracy doesn't work like that. International politics doesn't work like that...
Ross' whole presentation was nonsensical and I think the problems with it has already been raised by other fans online.
The villain's hyper-competence was a little hard to swallow since he was un-enhanced, working alone, and not particularly noted to be a genius/savant or whatever. But I could find enough SoD to let it go.
I also thought the airport fight scene was a little too long and action-porny. Rather like the IM/Hulk fight from AoU. But I guess I wasn't the targeted audience for that segment. I doubt the various versus forms would be satisfied with everyone's showing though...
One final note of something I liked about this film. It managed to avert the trope of "miscommunication kills", which is the tiresome way that normal Hollywood films use to push plot along. In CW, at the critical junctures, people do try to concisely explain why they're doing what they're doing. The conflict arises instead from the idea of "there's no talking to someone who won't listen", which is a much more human and empathetic failing.
The driving characters (Tony, Cap, Ross, T'challa) have all made up their minds at the beginning, and simply aren't open to actually listening to anything contrary. They rationalize away how their opponents must be wrong, and how their argument is the only way. Then add in the time crunch and it's no wonder everything imploded.
The Avengers are all people with extraordinary powers/skills which are fully capable of handling most external threats. But they're also fallible human beings, many of them with histories of trauma and no therapy, and thus utterly vulnerable to attacks from the emotional/domestic side of things. I mean, hell, that was already foreshadowed in Age of Ultron.
commenting from phone
Date: 2016-05-30 10:59 pm (UTC)Meanwhile, quick comments in response to your thoughts:
1. With the villain, I assummed that he was flexible with how the Avengers destroy themselves. He's shown changing his plans from getting info out of hydra goon to getting it out of WS instead. So the final result of the plan was more coincidence rather than deliberate. Zemo probably counted on dissension over WS to break Avengers, whether bc of accords or otherwise. In fact, it seems like the final fight was more of a failsafe than ultimate goal, since the airport battle could have ended up much worse. Technically, once Ross put all the TeamCap into the Raft, the final Steve/Tony fight was just gravy.
2. Airport fight: I like that everyone was pulling punches. It's clear both sides have reservations and don't want to resort to violence, but still convinced enough to fight for doing what they think is right.
3. Ending: honestly, I think it actually opened up lots of starbuck opportunities. Wakanda is plenty advanced enough to figure out how to fix Bucky's brainwashing and has enough vibranium to make Buck a new arm. Plus Steve can get a new shield. And teamcap is on the run, so plenty of time for hijinks.
4. Not enough Starbuck: agreed, but would want longer movie, since I like that everyone got their own character arc. Also need roadtrip fic.
(no subject)
Date: 2016-05-30 11:04 pm (UTC)5. Not sure if minds were necessarily all made up, since BW changed sides. Also Antman and spiderman were too starstruck to know/ask about details. Also Wanda went from compliance to getting pretty fed up with Tony's BS. More like everyone had different and multiple motivations, which added to the realism. Omg multifaceted motivations! What is Hollywood coming to? 😂
(no subject)
Date: 2016-05-31 05:36 am (UTC)Even T'Challa wasn't willing to entertain the possibility of Bucky being innocent at first, until he got a direct confession from Zemo at the end.
(no subject)
Date: 2016-06-05 04:36 pm (UTC)Obviously, my initial responses to the movie was that it felt more like an Avengers movie rather than a Cap movie. However, upon more re-watching, I feel like my stance has changed and I can see how it was a Cap movie, albeit one that had a lot of Avengers guest starring.
First: If it were an Avengers movie, the story is already biased towards supporting Cap's side of things, rather than Tony's side. Objectively, Tony is taking the wrong steps in trying to address "accountability", by accepting a system that pushes blame around rather than taking responsibility for making the necessary calls. It's as Cap has said, the Accords merely shifts the blame and doesn't actually make anyone accountable, which is exactly the opposite of what Tony purportedly is lobbying for.
Second: Out of the Avengers, the only ones who remained on Tony's side in the end are Rhodey (his best friend) and Vision (who's like 90% JARVIS). Pretty much everyone else has explicitly or implicitly turned against Tony. Natasha obviously ditched at the end. Peter's little speech about responsibility clearly puts him on the same moral side as Cap. T'Challa was kind of in it for his own reasons and served as a foil to Tony's way of responding to finding out his parents' killer. All of this points to Tony as the Antagonist in the story, rather than a protagonist.
Third: Despite the amount of airtime the Accords got, it's really how Bucky was affected by the Accords that was the driving motivation for Steve's actions. Steve was perfectly fine with taking a backseat during the ratification, but once Bucky is pulled into things, he's no longer willing to stand by. Yes, plot-point wise, Steve continued because he was chasing the red-herring, but that was merely to get the story to the final act where Steve and Tony clash over Bucky. So the focus of the plot is still Steve's interaction with Bucky, and less so Steve's relationship/interaction with Tony.
Fourth: The way the story was written, audiences were expected to know the plot points of Captain America franchise, especially the bits where Steve was told Hydra was behind Stark's death and that Steve has an extremely deep bond with Bucky. This was not set up in the Civil War movie because we're supposed to already know it from previous movies. Yet, the movie spent time setting up Tony's problematic relationship with his father precisely because the movie doesn't expect the audience to know Tony's character in depth at all. In other words, if you didn't bother watching any of the IM movies, but did watch all of the Cap movies (including Avengers), then you can still grasp the story just fine. However, if you did not watch the previous Cap movies, then you're most definitely going to be wrongly interpreting the scenes - thus, the writing was specifically written for a Cap audience, not an Avengers audience.
Fifth: Given that Captain America is at his best when leading a group of people and that at the last juncture we saw Cap leading the Avengers, it makes sense for the Avengers to serve as his supporting cast. While the majority of character arc development was given to Tony, that's because Tony is the main antagonist. While Zemo is the villain, his backstory was mostly glossed over, because he was a plot point, rather than the true antagonist. It is the ongoing conflict between Steve and Tony that actually serves to build to the emotional and action climax in the third act. Given that Tony most definitely was not being developed as the Protagonist, I'd claim that Civil War is more of a Cap movie than an IM movie.
/ramblings.