(I'm going backwards because the last bit is really kind of bothering me.)
Feixiao is explicitly supposed to be an improvement/replacement over Ratio (lacking his debuff requirement), which is tolerated by players because Ratio was given out for free to most people and thus it doesn't feel like any purchase was invalidated
OK, if the purpose is to "not invalidate old unit", then changing the meta to constantly chase new mechanics basically defeats that purpose. You've even mentioned, just because old units can output the same numbers doesn't mean that they can keep up with the new meta due to dungeon mechanics specifically negating their strengths. In which case, how is that any different than putting out units that simply is a straight upgrade.
(To be clear, I don't like power creep, so I'm not advocating to release units that replace old units. I'm trying to understand how using dungeon mechanics to make older units useless is fundamentally different.)
The reason why there's different mechanics (sets) is to serve specific encounters.
Yeah, and from what you're telling me, those encounter mechanics (at least in end-game dungeons) specifically avoid playing into the old unit's strengths, thus making them irrelevant. Meanwhile, story mechanics are simple enough that any 5-star, regardless of balance, can pull the team through. Seems like miHoyo is still designing obsolescence in older units, just doing it in a more round about way than straight up adding plus ones.
they (1) don't make any previous supports completely obsolete in the eyes of players, and (2) don't interact with other supports/DPS in broken ways...
If dungeons are literally avoiding the mechanics that previous support units excel at, then it doesn't matter if the current unit is or isn't stepping on the previous unit's toes, since the mechanic doesn't even get to bring benefits. It seems then the balancing is happening more on the dungeon side of things than the individual unit side of things.
As for broken interactions, if they're already testing all previous supports against a new support to make sure there's no toe-stepping (although why bother when dungeons are moving onto new metas anyway so old supports don't work as well already), then making sure there's a couple extra combos that are also viable is a drop in the bucket in terms of game balance playtesting calculations. Further more, there's already unintended interactions (per Ratio example you mentioned), in which case, they might as well just lean into it at that point. Especially if the new supports revives some older units, that'll do way more to minimize the "making previous unit obsolete in the eyes of gamers" bit of the concern.
characters of a specific role are not just swappable templates with numbers changed. They involve designing and testing new mechanics
OK, what I'm getting is that new characters get new mechanics because new dungeons are meant to circumvent older kits thus making new characters relevant. However, as I've repeatedly mentioned in my reply, this is just building obsolescence into older units without "adding plus ones" as it were. In which case, one doesn't need to test extensively against older units because older units literally do not have the skills needed to overcome the new dungeon mechanic. Or at least are already handicapped by not being equipped to deal with the new mechanics.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
branchandroot
(no subject)
Date: 2024-08-27 09:44 am (UTC)(I'm going backwards because the last bit is really kind of bothering me.)
OK, if the purpose is to "not invalidate old unit", then changing the meta to constantly chase new mechanics basically defeats that purpose. You've even mentioned, just because old units can output the same numbers doesn't mean that they can keep up with the new meta due to dungeon mechanics specifically negating their strengths. In which case, how is that any different than putting out units that simply is a straight upgrade.
(To be clear, I don't like power creep, so I'm not advocating to release units that replace old units. I'm trying to understand how using dungeon mechanics to make older units useless is fundamentally different.)
Yeah, and from what you're telling me, those encounter mechanics (at least in end-game dungeons) specifically avoid playing into the old unit's strengths, thus making them irrelevant. Meanwhile, story mechanics are simple enough that any 5-star, regardless of balance, can pull the team through. Seems like miHoyo is still designing obsolescence in older units, just doing it in a more round about way than straight up adding plus ones.
If dungeons are literally avoiding the mechanics that previous support units excel at, then it doesn't matter if the current unit is or isn't stepping on the previous unit's toes, since the mechanic doesn't even get to bring benefits. It seems then the balancing is happening more on the dungeon side of things than the individual unit side of things.
As for broken interactions, if they're already testing all previous supports against a new support to make sure there's no toe-stepping (although why bother when dungeons are moving onto new metas anyway so old supports don't work as well already), then making sure there's a couple extra combos that are also viable is a drop in the bucket in terms of game balance playtesting calculations. Further more, there's already unintended interactions (per Ratio example you mentioned), in which case, they might as well just lean into it at that point. Especially if the new supports revives some older units, that'll do way more to minimize the "making previous unit obsolete in the eyes of gamers" bit of the concern.
OK, what I'm getting is that new characters get new mechanics because new dungeons are meant to circumvent older kits thus making new characters relevant. However, as I've repeatedly mentioned in my reply, this is just building obsolescence into older units without "adding plus ones" as it were. In which case, one doesn't need to test extensively against older units because older units literally do not have the skills needed to overcome the new dungeon mechanic. Or at least are already handicapped by not being equipped to deal with the new mechanics.